Did anybody see what happened b/t Lutz & the ref?

No offense Lefty but are we really comparing Bobby to K again?? I like Bobby but c’mon, there’s no comparison in terms of how each coach is going to be perceived by officals. I’ll go out on a limb and say that there are officials who come into a Niner game, not even knowing how to correctly pronounce Lutz’s name.

I can’t stand him but K has earned the right to yell in the ears of officials the whole game and he’s going to have their respect for 40 minutes, regardless of what he’s saying. Bobby has a long way to go before his constant griping goes from being annoying to effective. He seriously needs to ease up because I think it’s a liability at this point in his career. I LOVE his enthusiam and fire, but I think it’s directed at the wrong people most of the time.

[i]Originally posted by jcl49er[/i]@Dec 13 2004, 09:04 AM [b] No offense Lefty but are we [i]really[/i] comparing Bobby to K again?? I like Bobby but c'mon, there's no comparison in terms of how each coach is going to be perceived by officals. [/b]
Actually yes. [b]As I pointed out, their styles are similar.[/b] They're intense competitors no matter the score or opponent and both like to shoot the three. Certainly, Lutz doesn't command the respect K does. I didn't say that, did I? And I'm pretty sure the refs consider K a jerk, even though they respect his success.

some coaches whine and complain whether the ref got it right or wrong. some coaches pick their spots carefully. the whole idea is to get the next call your way, this is where bobby screws up. i think often times he gets the next call to go the other way. good refs, bad refs, like it or not they are professionals and should be shown some respect. you can argue a call with enthusiasm without being disrespectful. make the point and get back to coaching. nothing can happen immediately, except a “t”. coaches that whine all the time are not taken as seriously as the ones that are a little more tactful.
don’t think these refs don’t talk to each other either.

[i]Originally posted by LeftyNiner[/i]@Dec 13 2004, 09:23 AM [b] Actually yes. [b]As I pointed out, their styles are similar.[/b] They're intense competitors no matter the score or opponent and both like to shoot the three. Certainly, Lutz doesn't command the respect K does. I didn't say that, did I? And I'm pretty sure the refs consider K a jerk, even though they respect his success. [/b]
If "style" refers to being notorious for whining more often than they should, then I'll give you that one. Yes, they are both similar in how much that harrass the officials over the course of a ballgame. And yes, both are very animated, passionate and vocal. But [i]my[/i] point was that there is no comparison in terms of the outcome of that type of behavior between Lutz and K.

And yes, I’m sure most officials do consider K to be a jerk…he’s a huge one. But with that said, he still has the respect of every single one because of what he has accomplished as a coach. Lutz cannot get that kind of respect now and his behavior is a liability in my opinion. He gripes nonstop and when he doesn’t get his way, he throws a temper tantrum that 9 times out of 10, results in a costly technical foul. I like Lutz a lot, maybe not as much as some here, but he DOES overdo it. And when you do it that much, as I’ve said before, you’re only annoying and not effective. It just becomes background noise for officials when you do that for 40 minutes and it’s going to work against you, not for you.

[b]make the point and get back to coaching. nothing can happen immediately, except a "t". coaches that whine all the time are not taken as seriously as the ones that are a little more tactful.[/b]

I agree. Lutz is the man in terms of his passion and I think ALL coaches should share his enthusiam but you have to pick your spots and Lutz can’t ever seem to turn it off…

Yes, I agree he takes it to far at times. I like the fire but he does need to pick his spots better. And yes, refs do talk. Even college soccer refs. We discuss coaches and how to handle them in our summer meetings. Some get mentioned by name and some show up to give their side of it.

I think the similarities between Lutz & K run deeper than their temperments/enthusiasm. If you look their styles, philosophy, systems, etc., or if you’ve ever heard Lutz discuss K’s program, you’ll probably know what I mean.

I appreciate bobby getting on refs, in college basketball you’ve got to earn respect with the refs. You also have to defend your players, and if you stick up for them maybe they will play harder. Sometimes a ref will T you up but as time goes on that usually happens less and less. Remember, even dean smith got kicked out of a final four game.

Do we have any refs here? Can anyone of you speak to this? How much does it really help a team for the coach to jump down the ref’s throat risking or getting a technical foul? I mean, the crowd does enough of it (at home) themselves. Personally, I think it would have more of an impact if a coach approached a ref at half-time and calmly asked him to clarify certain calls or inform him of certain opposing players’ propensity for fouling, roasting marshmallows in the lane, or whatever. I know coaches do this, but probably not enough. If it is true that refs can be influenced during the course of the game by getting berated by a coach, then Div. I NCAA basketball is a farce. It’s like the refs are like judges in court; certain ones can be influenced given certain situations. I don’t like that. To me that adds another dimension to the game that teams shouldn’t have to worry about, especially teams without a marquee coach. The playing field wouldn’t be level. The refs should just make the calls as they seem them and not react positively or negatively to outside influences. If it’s just “part of the game”, then I think that stinks.

[i]Originally posted by NormanNiner[/i]@Dec 13 2004, 11:24 AM [b] Do we have any refs here? Can anyone of you speak to this? How much does it [i]really[/i] help a team for the coach to jump down the ref's throat risking or getting a technical foul? I mean, the crowd does enough of it (at home) themselves. Personally, I think it would have more of an impact if a coach approached a ref at half-time and calmly asked him to clarify certain calls or inform him of certain opposing players' pension for fouling, roasting marshmallows in the lane, or whatever. I know coaches do this, but probably not enough. If it is true that refs can be influenced during the course of the game by getting berated by a coach, then Div. I NCAA basketball is a farce. It's like the refs are like judges in court; certain ones can be influenced given certain situations. I don't like that. To me that adds another dimension to the game that teams shouldn't have to worry about, especially teams without a marquee coach. The playing field wouldn't be level. The refs should just make the calls as they seem them and not react positively or negatively to outside influences. If it's just "part of the game", then I think that stinks. [/b]
I ref college soccer if that counts. :unsure: If the coach convinces me I made a bad call, a 50-50 call may go his way the next time. Just the way it is. I like the idea of a nice halftime chat. That does work, IMO. Too much berating is not good. As a ref, you either deal with it early or you just start ignoring it but it's much easier to ignore in soccer. Most basketball coaches get out of hand. It would take a massive overhaul to fix it. Coaches would be thrown out every game if they enforced the dissent, abusive language, and unsportsmanlike rules as stated in the book.
[i]Originally posted by LeftyNiner[/i]@Dec 13 2004, 08:51 AM [b] Coach K gets 700 - pounds Toledo 82-54 (From the Observer story). Interesting similarities in style. -------

And Krzyzewksi, who has ridden the officials in more than a handful of his 700 victories, began voicing his displeasure. He complained when he thought a Toledo player tried to trip Lee Melchionni, who was trying to save a ball from going out of bounds.

Krzyzewski swung his right foot to indicate that he thought another Toledo player kicked the ball before stealing it. After calling timeout with 49.5 seconds left in the first half, he shouted at official Ray Natili for a reason that wasn’t immediately clear.

Then Krzyzewski set up Redick to run across screens on the baseline for a 3-pointer that extended Duke’s halftime lead to 43-31.


Sure K has won 700 and the big ones but come on people, he’s screaming at the refs in a 30 point blowout of Toledo. We were getting tested by GA State at home. Remember the loss to Rutgers. I agree Bobby gets a little carried away at times BUT HIS DESIRE AND INTENSITY IS UN-MATCHED. [/b]


None of this makes it right.

Lutz should just shut up and coach.

[b]It's like the refs are like judges in court; certain ones can be influenced given certain situations. I don't like that. [/b]

I don’t either, but they’re humans. They look for stuff that isn’t they’re or overlook other things when they get mad. These things can cost you in close games. It takes a thick skin to be a ref, though not all refs have that and they let their emotions get in the way of doing their job properly. Whatever tactic you use as a coach to make them focus on the issue you want them to, you still have to know when to say when so they don’t start calling things against you.

[i]Originally posted by X-49er[/i]@Dec 13 2004, 11:52 AM [b] I don't either, but they're humans. [/b]
True, and at some point you just have to accept this as a known factor. Perhaps the challenge the coach faces is finding out each ref's breaking point, and bringing them just short of it while still getting their point across.
[i]Originally posted by LeftyNiner[/i]@Dec 13 2004, 11:41 AM [b] Too much berating is not good. As a ref, you either deal with it early or you just start ignoring it but it's much easier to ignore in soccer. [/b]
That's all I'm saying. I, personally, do not have any coaching experience. However, the same philosopy applies in many other aspects of life. If I had a coworker/boss constantly griping at me to do something, I would not only resent them, but I would be less likely to take care of their request. If I were approached in a mature manner, talked to like an equal and respected, then I would be much more accomodating.

I know that sometimes you have to be aggressive to get your point across but again, there’s a time and a place for that and doing it for entire game is unnecessary, childish and annoying.

I’ve reffed quite a bit and I’ll tell you from personal experience, if the guys got a point and talks to me like I’m a human, I’ll converse back and enjoy it. If he’s on my ass all game and doing nothing but whining because he’s not getting every call, I stick it to him all I can. Any marginal call goes the other way. I dare say I’m not the only one.

[i]Originally posted by hootie[/i]@Dec 13 2004, 06:39 PM [b] I've reffed quite a bit and I'll tell you from personal experience, if the guys got a point and talks to me like I'm a human, I'll converse back and enjoy it. If he's on my ass all game and doing nothing but whining because he's not getting every call, I stick it to him all I can. Any marginal call goes the other way. I dare say I'm not the only one. [/b]
Thanks you Hootie. This is what a lot of us are talking about. You've got to pick your spots and not cry wolf the entire game. I think Lutz is hurting us with the constant whining and it is embarrassing on top of that.

I do hope it is something Lutz works to improve on. He needs to undo his rep.