[quote=“NinerAdvocate, post:17, topic:24357”]This is huge for the University, so IMO, stop taking CHP to task for it. Yes, it will cost a fortune, but there are three ways it will tie the University to the rest of town that make this thing indespensible for the university:
Connecting nontradition students to downtown (jobs) and elsewhere
Connecting students with internship jobs, etc downtown without the need for a car and therefore very expensive parking that is a hassle to find
Connecting students with downtown night life. I know the school would rather not promote this, but it’s a big factor. I wish I could have ridden the choo choo to the clubs and not have to worry about a DD.
More wishful thinking, I wish the school would also seize upon park and ride opportrunities for panthers and bobcats games and the like, and maybe we could get some reciprocal business from those same fans.[/quote]
[quote=“MeanJoeGreen, post:22, topic:24357”][quote=“cibik02, post:15, topic:24357”]gotta play devil’s advocate… what’s the negatives?
more crime?
Seems good for the school… but how good for the University City as a whole?[/quote]
Yes. They don’t even enforce people riding for free. I love the school, but the benefits do not justify the expense.[/quote]Neither does building thousands of miles of suburban roads that serve nothing but residential users numbering in the low thousands (and often less) per day. All those thousands of miles of roads that contribute nothing to our economy not only cost money, but the neighborhoods they serve cost us millions in municipal pipelines, sewer, and other amenities. It’s why CMUD is in over a billion dollars of debt.
Suburban housing costs untold billions of dollars because of the thousands of miles of amenities that have to be added to serve a relatively low number of people per square mile.
I’m not anti-suburbs at all, I understand why people want to live there, but those living in the suburbs should pay much much more for water, sewer, trash pickup, and other amenities up than those in urban areas. If those in the urban core must subsidize their suburban lifestyle, then they can help subsidize the cost of an urban lifestyle.
[quote=“Niner National, post:23, topic:24357”][quote=“MeanJoeGreen, post:22, topic:24357”][quote=“cibik02, post:15, topic:24357”]gotta play devil’s advocate… what’s the negatives?
more crime?
Seems good for the school… but how good for the University City as a whole?[/quote]
Yes. They don’t even enforce people riding for free. I love the school, but the benefits do not justify the expense.[/quote]Neither does building thousands of miles of suburban roads that serve nothing but residential users numbering in the low thousands (and often less) per day. All those thousands of miles of roads that contribute nothing to our economy not only cost money, but the neighborhoods they serve cost us millions in municipal pipelines, sewer, and other amenities. It’s why CMUD is in over a billion dollars of debt.
Suburban housing costs untold billions of dollars because of the thousands of miles of amenities that have to be added to serve a relatively low number of people per square mile.
I’m not anti-suburbs at all, I understand why people want to live there, but those living in the suburbs should pay much much more for water, sewer, trash pickup, and other amenities up than those in urban areas. If those in the urban core must subsidize their suburban lifestyle, then they can help subsidize the cost of an urban lifestyle.[/quote]A friend of mine is on the town council in Clover, SC and they did some analysis to see what the breakeven point was on property taxes vs services delivered. I do not remember specifically, but it seems like a $160,000 house was about breakeven. From there you can modify zoning laws to ensure that development makes economic sense. Obviously the equation in Char/Meck would be different (higher breakeven) because they offer services like the Bobcat’s Arena, Whitewater Center, etc that far exceed sewer, water, and trash collection, but it becomes clear that as you add low income housing in the county and move higher income housing to the surrounding counties there is a mathmatical imbalance that is more significant than just density.
Roads carry people and freight and cost much less per person than light rail. Those people travel by vehicle to work, stores to other venues where taxes are collected. State road costs in NC are supposed to be paid for by the gasoline tax along with federal funding. If you haven’t noticed, our gas tax is one of the highest in the southeast. The state tax on gasoline by law was to be dedicated to road construction, but the democraps starting with ex-con-Gov Sleazily have robbed from the gas tax fund every year to compensate for other wasteful social programs.
The only way for light rail to work is for it to be subsidized and laws passed to influence (tax) people away from their cars. Its really simple to do the math. The last, and expensive, link for about 5 miles of I-485 is in at $160 for its finance, design and construction. Thats about $32 million per mile, ouch. However, the proposed light rail costs $920 million (they blew the budget on the first by a factor of 2, so beware). Thats 11 miles at about $84 million a mile (2.5 times last link of I-485). Even so, about 17,000 people ride the current light rail (not sure if this equates to the number of paying riders), whereas you get between 50,000 to over 100,000 vehicles per day on each section of 485. That is probably between 100k people and 150k people per section of 485 per day. So there you have it. The light rail costs about 2.5 times that of a significant interstate highway section and carries between about 11% the people of that one section alone. And get this, it turns out that plants we all use really like CO2 and warm weather? Think about that the next time you are sitting in traffic looking at the empty HOV lane you helped pay for…
The only reason I support the light rail is because it would be good for UNC Charlotte. Outside of that I could care less. If I still live in this neighborhood when they get it built I’d probably ride it to work and sporting events. There’s not much room in Charlotte for more roads or expanded roads, so just building more roads isnt the solution either. UCity alone is a pain in the ass between 4:30 and 7:00pm.
[quote=“MeanJoeGreen, post:26, topic:24357”]Roads carry people and freight and cost much less per person than light rail. Those people travel by vehicle to work, stores to other venues where taxes are collected. State road costs in NC are supposed to be paid for by the gasoline tax along with federal funding. If you haven’t noticed, our gas tax is one of the highest in the southeast. The state tax on gasoline by law was to be dedicated to road construction, but the democraps starting with ex-con-Gov Sleazily have robbed from the gas tax fund every year to compensate for other wasteful social programs.
The only way for light rail to work is for it to be subsidized and laws passed to influence (tax) people away from their cars. Its really simple to do the math. The last, and expensive, link for about 5 miles of I-485 is in at $160 for its finance, design and construction. Thats about $32 million per mile, ouch. However, the proposed light rail costs $920 million (they blew the budget on the first by a factor of 2, so beware). Thats 11 miles at about $84 million a mile (2.5 times last link of I-485). Even so, about 17,000 people ride the current light rail (not sure if this equates to the number of paying riders), whereas you get between 50,000 to over 100,000 vehicles per day on each section of 485. That is probably between 100k people and 150k people per section of 485 per day. So there you have it. The light rail costs about 2.5 times that of a significant interstate highway section and carries between about 11% the people of that one section alone. And get this, it turns out that plants we all use really like CO2 and warm weather? Think about that the next time you are sitting in traffic looking at the empty HOV lane you helped pay for…[/quote]
Light rail isn’t meant to be cheaper or better than roads. It’s meant to relieve roads from overuse and too much local traffic…which leads to wear and tear and the need for further expansion. The interstate highway system was not intended for a banker who lives in Concord to drive to downtown Charlotte. It was intended for long-haul over road transport of goods and people. That use isn’t going away so if there are better options for local traffic, it helps everyone out.
Light rail could be instrumental in creating a more college town atmosphere in University City.
In order to discourage automotive commuting, I would love to see the speed limits of 29 and 49 dropped to 35 mph at campus, allowing for multiple crosswalks and making street-level retail more accessible.
Fewer cars on the roads = less pollution, greater pedestrian accessibility, and increased ridership on the light rail. Everybody wins.
Now I think everyone on the board should donate $1000 toward the light rail fund. We should just give up on improving roads because light rail is where its at. Since we all hate traffic, lets throw our tax dollars to something that will do nothing to make the roads in Charlotte better. Hell, lets just ignore improving roads all together and lower all the speed limits so that the potholes will destroy anyone going over 35mph. Then we could take other measures to make the majority of every car owner’s life miserable until they just can’t wait to chuck the fossil fuel burning dinosaur first started here in the former capitalist USA. We can equip the magic choo choo with the fake choo choo whistle just like the other one so that we feel good when it goes, no matter how much it costs or how few people pay to ride. We can all take the magic choo choo to our crime infested urban closets we call our green houses and flick on our LED lava lamps and watch our furniture biodegrade.
Hey guys lets widened the clusterfuck known as roads in Char-Meck and wait 10 years till the same exact problem occurs. There’s nothing like a temporary solution to satisfy everyone for a few years. The gas tax already goes to the roads, and the reason why there is so much traffic backed up on the road, is because the design is shortsighted and becomes quickly outdated. I’m not saying road design is easy, but poor design has cost the county and city millions every year.
This line of thought is why the US infrastructure is falling behind all other developed nations in the world. This country used to be the pride of the world, now we’re being surpassed by virtually every other 1st world country (and China). I’m very much against many social programs, but I very much favor spending on infrastructure around the country. I want us to have the best of everything, roads included. I don’t want to see the Chinese setting a new record for fastest train in the world at 314 mph the same month the U.S. set a personal record for fastest train at less than 100 mph. Rail is by far the cheapest and most efficient way to move goods by land. In the U.S., this is not really a great option because our rail system is terrible. It takes up to two weeks to move goods across the country. Roads are inherently inefficient, although I’m not saying they’re not necessary. One day when you’re sitting in traffic look around. You’ll see a few hundred cars stretched out in front of and behind you. Think about all those people outside of a car. They’ll fit into a very small area, less than one section in Halton arena. Yet in their cars, they stretch for miles. What a waste of space.
Business locate to cities with great amenities. If their employees don’t have amenities, they won’t be happy, and they won’t locate there. DC, NYC, and other large cities would lose their workforce and their businesses that make them great cities if great public transit systems and great cultural amenities did not exist. Mass transit and cultural centers have values that cannot simply be measured by ticket or operating revenue.
For decades, the government subsidized the move to the suburbs through cheap gas, roads, and cheap land. We’ve been socially engineered to believe we need cars, huge houses, and big lots and that if anyone disagrees then they’re just capitalist hating democrats. I’ve never once in my life voted for a democrat, but the republic rhetoric is old and stale and a big part of why this country is being surpassed.
Your cost comparison to 485 is not a valid comparison. 485 is being built through rural farmland of very little value. Perhaps we should compare the proposed widening of I77 which could cost over 100 million dollars per mile. Why? Because real estate costs a hell of a lot more in a city than it does in the middle of nowhere. 485 north to the university has been open for years and it is still largely rural unused space. Who does that serve? Nobody except suburban shoppers in south Charlotte that want to go to Concord Mills.
The proposed 74 bypass comes in at 20 million per mile all so we can cut the travel time of suburban commuters by 17 minutes. How is that good use of tax payer money?
Its not valid to imply that roads cannot be improved and that road improvements costs are comparable to light rail. Light rail moves no freight. Light rail is not fast. Light rail is not a breakthrough in technology. Hwy 74 moves massive amounts of freight everyday. That road improvement would have a greater economic impact and result in less pollution than an overpriced choo choo. Since 2002, about $1 billion has been taken from the gas tax in NC for other government programs. We get about half of the federal tax dollars back that we pay on gas. Just think how much better our roads could be if we had been getting all of the $0.78 per gallon tax we pay every time we buy gas. You can call me Richard if you like.
Light rail will not help the environment because it increases traffic congestion by using a disproportionate amount of money to build for the amount of people that will use it. That money should be used where it is needed most by most. Just think about the lefties that implemented the HOV lane. It was huge tax payer expense to change the I-77 to incorporate a HOV lane. What happened next? We lost a lane of traffic for I-77 and the cars sitting idle on 77 and 85 south because of it are producing much more pollution per mile than if they were cruising all the lanes as the original design had been. Why shouldn’t everyone use all the lanes? The people with one per car are paying more dollars per person in taxes to build the road in the first place. Making laws to discourage people’s freedom and misleading them toward wasteful programs are common but not productive. Light rail is social engineering just like the global warming fad, or whatever it is called now.
Just like building millions of miles of roads to nowhere (all roads do not haul freight, in fact a small fraction do on a regular basis) and heavily subsidized gasoline has been social engineering since WWII.
Our roads in NC are amazing. I don’t know why people complain about them. Traffic is minimal, potholes are sparse, and repairs are done in a timely manner. The only people that complain are people that have never lived anywhere else.
Your view on mass transit is incredibly short sighted, which is another huge problem in the U.S. Everyone wants an immediate pay back, nobody looks at or understands long term value. When the system in DC was built, its ridership was sparse because it came before the development around it (except in the core of the city where few people live), but now this region would die without it. Even with it, traffic here is ridiculous. It takes my girlfriend 2 hours to get home from a job 20 miles away. Add a few hundred thousand more cars to those roads (which are 5+ lanes wide on each side) and imagine the congestion. If you want a case study on how NOT to built a city, look at Atlanta and DC. Millions in the suburbs, only about a half a million in the city. It just doesn’t work. That’s exactly what you’re wishing for Charlotte to become.
Roads would be much more efficient if people weren’t borderline retarded as a whole. Need proof? Just sit through any traffic tie up due to a fender bender. No reason for traffic to slow down when the cars are off the road and there is no debris blocking the road, but they do. People simply do not know how to drive efficiently because everyone drives with a me first mentality. They cut people off, they want until the last minute to merge, the rubber neck, they do everything one should not do to keep traffic moving efficiently. If you can design a road which removes human fault, then I hope every mass transit program in this country is disbanded.
[quote=“Niner National, post:35, topic:24357”]Just like building millions of miles of roads to nowhere (all roads do not haul freight, in fact a small fraction do on a regular basis) and heavily subsidized gasoline has been social engineering since WWII.
Our roads in NC are amazing. I don’t know why people complain about them. Traffic is minimal, potholes are sparse, and repairs are done in a timely manner. The only people that complain are people that have never lived anywhere else.
Your view on mass transit is incredibly short sighted, which is another huge problem in the U.S. Everyone wants an immediate pay back, nobody looks at or understands long term value. When the system in DC was built, its ridership was sparse because it came before the development around it (except in the core of the city where few people live), but now this region would die without it. Even with it, traffic here is ridiculous. It takes my girlfriend 2 hours to get home from a job 20 miles away. Add a few hundred thousand more cars to those roads (which are 5+ lanes wide on each side) and imagine the congestion. If you want a case study on how NOT to built a city, look at Atlanta and DC. Millions in the suburbs, only about a half a million in the city. It just doesn’t work. That’s exactly what you’re wishing for Charlotte to become.
Roads would be much more efficient if people weren’t borderline retarded as a whole. Need proof? Just sit through any traffic tie up due to a fender bender. No reason for traffic to slow down when the cars are off the road and there is no debris blocking the road, but they do. People simply do not know how to drive efficiently because everyone drives with a me first mentality. They cut people off, they want until the last minute to merge, the rubber neck, they do everything one should not do to keep traffic moving efficiently. If you can design a road which removes human fault, then I hope every mass transit program in this country is disbanded.[/quote]
Gas taxes… widening interestates… property values are all important issues but they are irellevant to the topic at hand… all you really need to know is this:
Will the light rail make our college experience better? yes
Will the light rail reduce traffic around U City? yes
Will the light rail help connect the city to the university? yes
Will the light rail bring more people to athletic events? yes
There may be some reduced traffic as a result of the light rail but I don’t think traffic will be much different. I haven’t really followed where the stop will be but if it is near the university I imagine you will see an increase in traffic in the university area due to people that normally wouldn’t go near university now coming through to park and ride.
H Deck (near the on-campus station) will only be available to folks with UNC Charlotte parking stickers, so I doubt we get folks parking there that wouldn’t already be there for another reason. The area’s large Park&Ride is supposed to be near the Starlight Theater up 29, with a smaller one near the Meck County Rec Fields/Greenway on Mallard Creek Church Rd.
