I have long been a loyal 49er fan, and fairly knowledgeable about the game, but not an expert on the X’s and O’s like some of you. One thing I’ve observed this year that frustrates me to death is the way our players bunch together on offense. I watched Xavier (and many other teams) spread their offense far more than we ever did, and that made us spread our defense, opening passing/cutting lanes for them.
Because our players were usually so close together, the defense could double or triple Withers, but still roll to pick up another player if he passes out of the doubleteam. The only exception was when DA or LG were way across court and Curt could somehow get it to him.
Is that bad coaching or poor execution of a legitimate strategy to set picks and screens?
I have never felt as disappointed about a season as this one.
[QUOTE=77grad;160613]I have long been a loyal 49er fan, and fairly knowledgeable about the game, but not an expert on the X’s and O’s like some of you. One thing I’ve observed this year that frustrates me to death is the way our players bunch together on offense. I watched Xavier (and many other teams) spread their offense far more than we ever did, and that made us spread our defense, opening passing/cutting lanes for them.
Because our players were usually so close together, the defense could double or triple Withers, but still roll to pick up another player if he passes out of the doubleteam. The only exception was when DA or LG were way across court and Curt could somehow get it to him.
Is that bad coaching or poor execution of a legitimate strategy to set picks and screens?
I have never felt as disappointed about a season as this one.[/QUOTE]
You can only effectively and truly spread the floor if all of your players are some kind of offensive threat and/or you have plenty of three point shooting. The three-point shooting pulls players out farther, and takes teams out of zones. When they play man you can then spread the floor if they have to play straight up, meaning they can’t afford to double-up on any one player. Villanova does theis well because 4 of their players can take you off the dribble, and all of them pass pretty well.
We effectively had 3 offensive threats on the floor most of the time this season, except for when Bennett was in the game. Thus, the other team’s C or PG could sag off of their man and easily double Curtis. Mitch quit driving and can’t shoot, so spreading the floor wasn’t an option because no team in their right mind is going to try to guard Mitch beyond the 3 point line because he’s no threat to shoot.
[QUOTE=NinerAdvocate;160616]You dont have to guard mitch or Nance. easy to double us.[/QUOTE]
When they are on the floor at the same time were are one of, if not the most offensively challenged teams in the country. It is a virtual 5-3 powerplay for the D.
[QUOTE=77grad;160613]I have long been a loyal 49er fan, and fairly knowledgeable about the game, but not an expert on the X’s and O’s like some of you. One thing I’ve observed this year that frustrates me to death is the way our players bunch together on offense. I watched Xavier (and many other teams) spread their offense far more than we ever did, and that made us spread our defense, opening passing/cutting lanes for them.
Because our players were usually so close together, the defense could double or triple Withers, but still roll to pick up another player if he passes out of the doubleteam. The only exception was when DA or LG were way across court and Curt could somehow get it to him.
Is that bad coaching or poor execution of a legitimate strategy to set picks and screens?
I have never felt as disappointed about a season as this one.[/QUOTE]
First for NA and X-49er - What you’re saying is that we stink on offense becasue we don’t have 5 scorers on the floor. NO TEAM IN AMERICA HAS 5 SCORERS. National Championships have been won with teams that have 2 scorers on the floor. Stop blaming the players and assign fault where it is due…on a coach who does nothing to adjust to his talent. We’re still running an offense that features Jobey Thomas…and somebody should let Lutz know that he graduated.
77Grad, You are correct in your assumption that we are too close together…in coaching venacular it is referred to as Spacing and the accepted distance is 12-15 feet of space between each offensive player.
Any coach who knows anything about Half-Court Offense will tell you that in order to run an effective offense, no matter the style or if you’re going against man or zone, you need 3 things:
Spacing
Player movement
Ball movement
Here’s what you get with Lutz and his “Open Offense”
Crowding
Standing Around
And1 Mix Tape Dribbling to nowhere
Stop blaming the players. The coach is clueless in anything other than shooting the 3. We may as well go to a Paul Westhead Loyola Marymount system.
I’m still looking for someone to explain to me why Lutz stuck with Mitchell all year as he continued to regress. Please,it’s causing me to lose sleep and consider Lutz a terrible coach…help me understand.
Lutz’s offense relies on having a certain mix of guys. He gives them a lot of freedom to make plays. They have to make plays, especially the PG if the set doesn’t materialize.
He said we were trying to run more “motion 4-out one-in” this year to get away from so many set plays like we used to run for Jobey/Plavich. We were ineffective executing the motion at times, which relies on guys making good decisions. Result is jumbled mess that someone described. The little-big screens were more effective (like what we saw with Curt-Leemire late) as long as guys are hitting shots.
Mitchell is one player that actually got worse late in college. I will never understand why or how that happened. We don’t move on offense. When in GW (damn I am never making another road trip for this team) I commented on several occasions, we need to move on offense. There is a lot of standing around. This is a team that had a lot of talent but could never put it all together and win. That’s a risk you take with JUCO’s.
[QUOTE=4AMer;160651]First for NA and X-49er - What you’re saying is that we stink on offense becasue we don’t have 5 scorers on the floor. NO TEAM IN AMERICA HAS 5 SCORERS. National Championships have been won with teams that have 2 scorers on the floor. Stop blaming the players and assign fault where it is due…on a coach who does nothing to adjust to his talent. We’re still running an offense that features Jobey Thomas…and somebody should let Lutz know that he graduated.
77Grad, You are correct in your assumption that we are too close together…in coaching venacular it is referred to as Spacing and the accepted distance is 12-15 feet of space between each offensive player.
Any coach who knows anything about Half-Court Offense will tell you that in order to run an effective offense, no matter the style or if you’re going against man or zone, you need 3 things:
Spacing
Player movement
Ball movement
Here’s what you get with Lutz and his “Open Offense”
Crowding
Standing Around
And1 Mix Tape Dribbling to nowhere
Stop blaming the players. The coach is clueless in anything other than shooting the 3. We may as well go to a Paul Westhead Loyola Marymount system.[/QUOTE]
We’re not running all of the sets like we used to do for Jobey and Plavich as I explained above. I do agree with the need for better spacing, player and ball movement. Guys are open after Curt swings it. We don’t need to take the first three attempt.
I am jealous of how well other teams spread the floor, but I think 4AMer is splitting hairs - while you dont need 5 scorers, you have to have 5 guys who can make an open shot or drive on their defender is he chooses to ignore you.
Withers received the Jason Maxiell treatment this year, for the same reason. We could put Mitch 15’ from the next closest Niner, and they’d still play off him.
We need a PG that commands defensive respect, and a 5 that can take the pressure off our 4’s. Then, IMHO, we need to spread the floor and run the same type of ball movement & motion that X ran against us - swing it around to the side, cut a 3 or a 4 into the lane, dump it off to him in stride for an easy lay up. Also love a spread floor to feed the post or for the PG or a wing to drive to the rim.
Hell come to think of it, we’ve stopped overloading one side for wing drives, and we stopped posting DA up too.
yes it is difficult when we spread the floor, we didn’t have 5 guys who could take their man off the dribble, shoot or who could all cut towards the basket and get open catch and go to the basket.
So essentially as someone said when you spread too much you take a couple of your guys off the court and the D does not have to worry about them so they match up with numbers against our 2 or 3 guys.
Look at Curtis yesterday they ran two guys at him and the guy guarding him, so they had no problem playing 3 guys against one. I even noticed a few times they would run 2 guys at DA when he caught the ball, so they were not afraid to leave 1 of their guys against 3 of ours on offense.
By the way Lutz does this a lot on the other end, basically over plays some of the other teams scorers and dares the other guys to shoot or drive (or cut towards the basket catch and dunk), and it makes us mad as fans when he does this, it does work though.
Here’s the bottom line. If we we’re doing all the things that a good offense is supposed to
Spacing
Player movement
Ball Movement
and THEN we couldn’t score then I would blame the players. But since we don’t do ANY of those things you must address the SYSTEM first and then address the players execution of that system.
THE SYSTEM STINKS…no matter how nice of a guy you think Lutz is, no matter how much his nerdy professor look endears him to announcers…HIS Half-Court Offense is HORRIBLE.
If you have player movement, such as Motion or Flex offenses, it doesn’t matter who your PG is because all the players are moving and all handle the ball…which would seem like a logical fit when we have 1 thru 4 who can all handle the ball.
Isn’t it much harder to double team the post and defend your assigned player when the guy you’re guarding is on the move? I could guard MJ if all he did was stand around on the perimeter like our guys do.
With spacing and good player movement comes ball movement and it forces the defenders to move which weakens the defense which presents scoring opportunities. This is basic, fundamental basketball which Lutz does not teach.
Blaming the player for the lack of offense when we run a Non-System is like blaming the dry wall when your house is falling down. It’s the foundation that’s to blame not the drywall…and Lutz has in place a crappy foundation.
I could break down for you numerous offenses of college coaches around the country because when you watch the game you can see they have a plan. When I watch our games I keep saying to myself “What are we running?” And the answer is “Nothing” We stand around waiting for someone to make a play. That’s horrible coaching…it’s not the players fault when there isn’t a system in place for them to follow. Lutz’ half-court offense is basically to run a guy off a screen to see if he can get open for a 3…if he’s not open well “Go make something happen”
I know the real reason is Mitchell is terrible and Lutz is an “Offensive Genius”. And if you believe that than you also believe that standing around is good, dribbling without going anywhere is good and crowding around the ball like 6 year olds in a soccer league is also good.
I apprieciate your enthusiasm for the program and your loyalty…but Lutz needs a clue on Offense and Defense.
[QUOTE=switchfoot;160657]Mitchell is one player that actually got worse late in college. I will never understand why or how that happened. We don’t move on offense. When in GW (damn I am never making another road trip for this team) I commented on several occasions, we need to move on offense. There is a lot of standing around. This is a team that had a lot of talent but could never put it all together and win. That’s a risk you take with JUCO’s.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately we can’t use that excuse for Mitch. He ain’t no JUCO.He’s just a guy who lost it and was playing out the string.
[QUOTE=4AMer;160687]If you have player movement, such as Motion or Flex offenses, it doesn’t matter who your PG is because all the players are moving and all handle the ball…which would seem like a logical fit when we have 1 thru 4 who can all handle the ball…[/QUOTE]
We had 2 players on the floor most of the time this year that could consistantly take their man off the dribble AND not consistantly turn it over when handling the ball. Thus, running either of those offenses would not have worked any better than what we ran. Coincidentally, those two players also happened to be our three-point shooters. Mitchell does not handle the ball very well. He waits until he gets the opportunity to blow by the defender, and then does to get the ball up the court. Curtis, nor our 5’s can handle the ball when guarded. You can spread the floor with our personnel, but the defense would simply waive at you while sitting back in the zone. They didn’t have to guard Mitch, and could sag off of our 5 to double Withers when needed. Spacing the floor would not have helped. It would have simply took our players further from the basket and let the defense relax. We didn’t need that. If you have 4 players who are three-point shooting threats in your lineup, then you CAN spread the floor because the defenders have to come guard you. When you only have two, only two have to come out and a spread offense looks silly.
[QUOTE=4AMer;160687] First for NA and X-49er - What you’re saying is that we stink on offense becasue we don’t have 5 scorers on the floor. NO TEAM IN AMERICA HAS 5 SCORERS. National Championships have been won with teams that have 2 scorers on the floor. Stop blaming the players and assign fault where it is due…on a coach who does nothing to adjust to his talent. [/QUOTE]
I never said that you had to have 5 scorers. This is what I said:
[QUOTE]You can only effectively and truly spread the floor if all of your players are [B]some kind [/B]of offensive threat and/or you have plenty of three point shooting. [/QUOTE]
What part of that says that all five have to be scorers (i.e. by scorers I’m assuming you meant double digits every game). What I meant, and what you obviously misunderstood, is that they DO have to be able to make a wide open shot when their man is doubling on somebody else. If they can’t do that or drive to the bucket when left alone, then they are a handicap on offense. You can’t run the flex, motion, Princeton, spread, or any of those effectively if you’re point guard can’t shoot and won’t drive, and if you only have two players on the court that can beat their man off the dribble and/or consistantly make open 3’s. Your 1-4 don’t have to be able to do both great (shoot and drive), but they better be able to do one of those pretty well or they will not be productive. If they can’t do either, then they’re a liability on offense, no matter what system it is.
i hate to say it but, if you want to see spacing, watch Memphis play. With the speed they have, thats why they score so much. We have speed, why cant we try and be a little like them, but not a lot.
There’s too much here that’s incorrect for me to even try to debate.
All you and Lutz want to do is rely on player’s making plays “off the dribble”. That’s what you do in the NBA when you have the MOST SKILLED players in the world and a 24 second shot-clock. When you have less skilled players and a 35 second shot clock you implement a system that allows them to execute…if you’re a good coach. There’s a reason winning teams have a System in college.
As I stated in my first post ask any respectable coach (or read a respected coach’s book) anything about half-court offense and they will tell you that you need
Spacing
Player movement
Ball movement
Does Lutz’ offensive “System” do ANY of those things? I say “No” and that logically follows that I believe he has a crappy half-court offense (among other things).
Finally, stop blaming Mitchell Baldwin for his failures as a PG. He’s not a PG. He’s a slashing, small-forward stuck with a guards height. Anybody who’s seen him play should’ve been able to evaluate that he’s not a PG. If he were 6’7" would anyone try to make him a PG? NO. Then why try to do it at 6’2". Blaming him for his shortcomings as a PG is liking asking you’re second baseman to pitch because you’re short on pitchers…and then when he gets bombed you tell him he stinks as a pitcher. Well you should’ve known that he was a second baseman. PG are born not made…and we tried to make him a PG in 4 years and it never worked.
[QUOTE=4AMer;160713]
Finally, stop blaming Mitchell Baldwin for his failures as a PG. He’s not a PG. He’s a slashing, small-forward stuck with a guards height. Anybody who’s seen him play should’ve been able to evaluate that he’s not a PG. If he were 6’7" would anyone try to make him a PG? NO. Then why try to do it at 6’2". Blaming him for his shortcomings as a PG is liking asking you’re second baseman to pitch because you’re short on pitchers…and then when he gets bombed you tell him he stinks as a pitcher. Well you should’ve known that he was a second baseman. PG are born not made…and we tried to make him a PG in 4 years and it never worked.[/QUOTE]
We’ve known since Mitchell was a freshman that he could not shoot very well. He used to be able to handle the ball a little better before this season, and he drove to the bucket. He quit driving after he came back from his injury, so it rendered him ineffective and sometimes near useless on the court. Mitch was an effective point guard when he used his speed to get to the bucket. His playing more than he should have this year is something you can pin on Lutz, but his style of play changing was his own doing. I don’t know what he did during the summers while he was at Charlotte, but he should have been working on his shot so, if nothing else, he could make wide open threes when left all alone. If Mitch is not a PG, then what is he? I think I can rule out shooting guard for you.
As was mentioned earlier, the offensive system we run this year is a 1-4 system that relies on motion. Everyone seems to equate motion with cuts. Flex and Princeton offenses usually rely on player movement moreso than ball movement. Our system is designed to move the ball around and either A get a favorable one on one matchup or B get an open jump shot when the defense collapses.
Unfortunately Xavier exploited our weakness. First they ran a triple team at Curt Withers. They sent Doellman over to help and dropped Barker? (34) to cover Nance or Williams from getting a dunk. They also used their PG to sag down, basically giving Mitch an open look. He missed them…badly. You can’t blame Bobby when is PG can’t make a wide open 3 point basket. The only other look was the corner. Towards the end they did a better job of closing out towards the corner and trapping our guys in the corners.
This situation could have been avoided if Mitch would have done something other than stand at the top of the key and wait for Curtis to throw him the ball. Mitch never goes to the basket. Bobby doesn’t mind him cutting. He did it frequently last year with both Mitch and Eddie. However Mitch won’t do it because he is timid about his shoulder. If Mitch would have back cut his man when he sagged on Withers, Curt could have given him a feed which would have given him an angle to get the ball to a big or get a layup. Additionally a shooter could then rotate over towards Curt forcing his man to follow and freeing up the corner jumper completely.
It sounds simple, but Indiana used this strategy and killed us with it. In order to run it though you have to have players that make good decisions and a PG that is willing to go to the basket. We had neither. Instead our PG, SG and SF all froze waiting for the ball to come to them. Part of it is coaching, part is just players who don’t know how to play.
Thankfully next year we should be getting a PG who can play. Then their will be no excuses.
[QUOTE=X-49er;160717] If Mitch is not a PG, then what is he? I think I can rule out shooting guard for you.[/QUOTE]
Realistically, Mitch would’ve been most successful a DII or DIII Small Forward. He doesn’t have traditional PG or SG skills so he really doesn’t fit into a traditional set-up half-court offense…like Lutz runs (or attempts to run). However, his athleticism is undeniably DI and he could’ve been successful as a DI guard in the right system. If he played in an uptempo, pressing system where the majority of your offense came from transition baskets (something like Nolan Richardson’s 40 minutes of hell at Arkansas), his athleticism and open court ball-handling skills would’ve allowed him to be successful and a major contributor.
Conversely, Brendan Plavich fit perfectly into Lutz’ system but would have been a be a nightmare in the aforementioned Arkansas system of the early 1990s.
[QUOTE=4AMer;161410]…If he played in an uptempo, pressing system where the majority of your offense came from transition baskets (something like Nolan Richardson’s 40 minutes of hell at Arkansas), his athleticism and open court ball-handling skills would’ve allowed him to be successful and a major contributor.
[/QUOTE]
Mitch was a major contributor in the frast paced running games before he got hurt. The best example I can think of is the Louisville game when Demon was suspended a couple of years ago.