Big Three Bailout

Management and the UAW and ideologues on both sides love to use a crisis such as this to pin 100% of the fault on “the other side”.

That’s not what’s happened here. It’s taken everyone involved with their hands in the cookie jar of entitlement and arrogance to screw this up.

The super cheap gas environment of the early 90’s paved the way for the Big 3 to produce these enormous zip code mobiles (trucks big enough to warrant their own zipcodes - as Dave Berry said, the “Chevy Subdivision”), sales of which hid the fact that their car lines were absolute crap with interiors made of the cheapest plastics, and transmissions with a 100k life expectancy. Styling, refinement and innovation also took a backseat to flat out size. It says something that the engineers at Toyota were just in awe of how American consumers would buy the biggest vehicle they could buy, regardless of quality considerations.

As SUV sales began to sag and fuel prices began to rise, the arrogance of the Big 3’s management to not retool to the market was the death knell of the latest era. Left to try to survive on sales of more moderate sedans, small utes, and hybrids, they were exposed by foreign competition as fundamentally inferior vehicles. They’re rushed to brings ome better products to market, but the marketing & production execution (e.g. the Ford Taurus/500 & the Chrysler sedans) have not hit dead center, or have been too late to matter (Chevy Malibu).

IMO - the government should force a re-org, but back the company in bankruptcy so that vendors and consumers have some confidence. We really need to resturture the union contracts to something workable and dump a lot of the bloated management. That said, I don’t want government ultimately owning or running these automakers.

The fuel efficient american cars could never compete with the Japanese cars. The Focus was probably their best bet, but they kept the best focus in europe and killed the name with the new focus.

American midsize cars have always been decent though. Its the gas craze that did them in, but its piss poor future planning that brought them to this point.

As for the Volt, its $40k and 10 years too late. They should of played with this 10 years ago, and I gaurantee you that GM would be at the top of their game and Electric cars would be having a decent foothold on the market.

Another problem with the Volt is people have a real bad taste about electrics, thanks to the many attempts before. Although its a cool car, i’d still rather spend half that and get a prius.

yep, otherwise, you would've seen some form of hybrids much earlier from the American car companies.

I also got in trouble once for carrying a box (that fit under my arm) down the hall because I was “taking work away from a union employee”. I was “written up” and it was placed in my permanent records.

QFMFT!!!

ever go to a tradeshow in Vegas??? Try and do anything in the convention hall and see what happens…The Union scumbags/gypsies flip out on you (if they are not on break smoking)

[QUOTE=J Felt;367727]I’ve heard/read great stories.

The best was that someone made a mess, but couldn’t clean it up because that was “the janitor’s job” and you can’t do anyone else’s work.[/QUOTE]

you had to mention janitors …

One building I was in had the union go out on strike and yes, we had to clean our own bathrooms (scrub toilets, sinks, empty trash).

They brought our whole wing together (approximately 100 people) and said we were not leaving the meeting until everyone signed up for at least one daily cleaning shift.

The goverment owning a car company would be worse then the situation now. Anyone remember what a LADA was?

They just need to go ahead and file bankruptcy. This will force them to renegotiate the union contract. Then take the bailout and pay their vendors.

[QUOTE=metro;367732]QFMFT!!!

ever go to a tradeshow in Vegas??? Try and do anything in the convention hall and see what happens…The Union scumbags/gypsies flip out on you (if they are not on break smoking)[/QUOTE]

It took me 2 weeks to move out of one building to another building…one union handled electrical (my computer) and a different union handled transfer cases (paperwork/books). I scheduled the move the day I found out I was being transferred.

My boxes arrived at the new location 2 weeks ahead of the computer. I worked between the 2 locations for a while, but once they picked up my computer, it sat on the loading dock for 6 more days.

Management was no help…“they do the best they can”

oh…did I mention the 2 locations were 6/10th of a mile apart?

[QUOTE=Gill2003;367734]The goverment owning a car company would be worse then the situation now. Anyone remember what a LADA was?[/QUOTE]

who are you replying to

Management and the UAW and ideologues on both sides love to use a crisis such as this to pin 100% of the fault on "the other side".

That’s not what’s happened here. It’s taken everyone involved with their hands in the cookie jar of entitlement and arrogance to screw this up.

The super cheap gas environment of the early 90’s paved the way for the Big 3 to produce these enormous zip code mobiles (trucks big enough to warrant their own zipcodes - as Dave Berry said, the “Chevy Subdivision”), sales of which hid the fact that their car lines were absolute crap with interiors made of the cheapest plastics, and transmissions with a 100k life expectancy. Styling, refinement and innovation also took a backseat to flat out size. It says something that the engineers at Toyota were just in awe of how American consumers would buy the biggest vehicle they could buy, regardless of quality considerations.

As SUV sales began to sag and fuel prices began to rise, the arrogance of the Big 3’s management to not retool to the market was the death knell of the latest era. Left to try to survive on sales of more moderate sedans, small utes, and hybrids, they were exposed by foreign competition as fundamentally inferior vehicles. They’re rushed to brings ome better products to market, but the marketing & production execution (e.g. the Ford Taurus/500 & the Chrysler sedans) have not hit dead center, or have been too late to matter (Chevy Malibu).

IMO - the government should force a re-org, but back the company in bankruptcy so that vendors and consumers have some confidence. We really need to resturture the union contracts to something workable and dump a lot of the bloated management. That said, I don’t want government ultimately owning or running these automakers.


two things: the biggest sellers of the Big 3 don’t have cheap interiors. Tahoe, Expedition, and their pickups have tight interiors. I agree in the 80’s it sucked. And fwiw, my wife’s Volvo XC90 has pieces constantly popping off, the interior blows and the gas effeciency sucks.

2nd- nobody knew how FAST the price of oil would go up. I mean did anyone see that coming, to $4.00?? Hell even Toyota ramped up Tundra and Sequoia production and the 4 runner is a gas hog, so they are not saints here. They would of loved to have the SUV market to themselves

[QUOTE=NinerAdvocate;367730]
IMO - the government should force a re-org, but back the company in bankruptcy so that vendors and consumers have some confidence. [/QUOTE]

you might have a fighting chance with something like this. As I think I said earlier, the impact to the vendors needs to be carefully handled.

[QUOTE]We really need to resturture the union contracts to something workable and dump a lot of the bloated management. That said, I don’t want government ultimately owning or running these automakers.[/QUOTE]

I don’t want the government owning these companies, either. However, I don’t see any other way, at least in the short term, to force the hand of management, on both sides to rework those damn union agreements.

The only american vehicles with decent inetriors are the ones with $40-$50k stickers and up. Below that, they’re terrible. I’ve tried for years to buy American (out of guilt), but the interior is the part I have to look at and live with, and I’m not putting up with that crap.

Also - guess who owns Volvo now and retooled them from the super safe and well built soccer mom mobiles of the 80s?

(Answer: F.O.R.D. - found on road, dead)

I dont hate everything Ford - the F150 is a decent truck, but the interior used to be garbage too, and I’ve heard bad things about paint and some tranny issues.

would HAVE metro. Sorry, pet peeve. Toyota has gotten caught with their pants down, too. And the weakening dollar is making the japanese makers skimp on interiors now too - just look at what Nissan is doing. The shifter in the Altima is so Ford/Chevy that I’m suprised it’s not one.

That said, the SUV craze began dying before the gas prices exploded. There have been articles for years about it. But management at the Big 3 basically said “that’s unpossible” and plowed ahead. The unions too.

[QUOTE=Gill2003;367731]

Another problem with the Volt is people have a real bad taste about electrics, thanks to the many attempts before. Although its a cool car, i’d still rather spend half that and get a prius.[/QUOTE]

Rode in a Prius last week for the 1st time. Was pretty well impressed.

Oh the japanese companies jumped in as soon as they could. They saw the SUV market and jumped in. But they also had their Camry’s and Civics go keep their heart beating.

Also, not everyone buys a Tahoe or Expedition. Ever seen the interior of a 90’s (all years) Explorer? Lots of gray plastic.

However, I will say the newer Ford and GM trucks have been VERY impressive. I drove an 08 explorer while my other car was getting ready. I was surprised with the fit and quality of the interior, although there was still a bunch of plastic in it. But that plastic looked good!

And I agree with Metro, the new volvo’s have defenitly dropped in quality. They are sharing too many parts with Ford.

[QUOTE=NinerAdvocate;367746]

(Answer: F.O.R.D. - found on road, dead)

[/QUOTE]

Fix Or Repair Daily

[QUOTE=NinerAdvocate;367746]The only american vehicles with decenty inetriors are the ones with $40-$50k stickers and up. Below that, they’re terrible. I’ve tried for years to buy American (out of guilt), but the interior is the part [B]I[/B] have to look at and live with, and I’m not putting up with that crap.

Also - guess who owns Volvo now and retooled them from the super safe and well built soccer mom mobiles of the 80s?

(Answer: F.O.R.D. - found on road, dead)

I dont hate everything Ford - the F150 is a decent truck, but the interior used to be garbage too, and I’ve heard bad things about paint and some tranny issues.

would HAVE metro. Sorry, pet peeve. Toyota has gotten caught with their pants down, too. And the weakening dollar is making the japanese makers skimp on interiors now too - just look at what Nissan is doing. The shifter in the Altima is so Ford/Chevy that I’m suprised it’s not one.

That said, the SUV craze began dying before the gas prices exploded. There have been articles for years about it. But management at the Big 3 basically said “that’s unpossible” and plowed ahead. The unions too.[/QUOTE]

True. Like I said above, their new cars are getting crappier. But Ford did turn around Volvo sales with new looks and such.

The only american vehicles with decenty inetriors are the ones with $40-$50k stickers and up. Below that, they're terrible. I've tried for years to buy American (out of guilt), but the interior is the part [B]I[/B] have to look at and live with, and I'm not putting up with that crap.

Also - guess who owns Volvo now and retooled them from the super safe and well built soccer mom mobiles of the 80s?

(Answer: F.O.R.D. - found on road, dead)

I dont hate everything Ford - the F150 is a decent truck, but the interior used to be garbage too, and I’ve heard bad things about paint and some tranny issues.

would HAVE metro. Sorry, pet peeve. Toyota has gotten caught with their pants down, too. And the weakening dollar is making the japanese makers skimp on interiors now too - just look at what Nissan is doing. The shifter in the Altima is so Ford/Chevy that I’m suprised it’s not one.

That said, the SUV craze began dying before the gas prices exploded. There have been articles for years about it. But management at the Big 3 basically said “that’s unpossible” and plowed ahead. The unions too.

did Ford change Volvo product? I don’t know. I will say the stereo is the best factory sound I’ve ever heard. :shades:

the F150 is an awesome truck, I had one for a company car from 2004-2006, no issues.

anyway, the Big 3 will be fine if they get their labor down in the $50 dollar range like Toyota, instead of $75.

one other tidbit to throw out not mentioned…the minivan plays a part here too. They are going out of style, and the Big 3 sold alot of them. Again, Toyota and Honda got in heavy there too.

2nd- nobody knew how FAST the price of oil would go up. I mean did anyone see that coming, to $4.00?? Hell even Toyota ramped up Tundra and Sequoia production and the 4 runner is a gas hog, so they are not saints here. They would of loved to have the SUV market to themselves

No way. Dont buy this for a minute. The Energy Department has warned of the volatility of oil prices/supplies since the damn 70’s. Peak Oil has been a debate for decades. Oil prices rose at a steady rate since late 2002. You’d have to be living in a hole to not know that gas prices could at any point in time be a significant issue.

Ford definitely retooled Volvo. They had this godawful “one world car” idea they were trying to play with back in the mid to late 90s (remember the Ford Contour? :shudder:) when they got hold of Volvo. Many of the parts in Volvos were/are Ford parts.

… and management needs to go too. Trim it down and redirect it. Simply fixing labor costs is not the answer to bad management and a lack of vision or planning.

The Odyssey still sells well, and I’ve ridden in a Previa (sp?) - its a nice vehicle… for a minivan.

No way. Dont buy this for a minute. The Energy Department has warned of the volatility of oil prices/supplies since the damn 70's. Peak Oil has been a debate for decades. Oil prices rose at a steady rate since late 2002. You'd have to be living in a hole to not know that gas prices could at any point in time be a significant issue.

show me one single link where anyone with credibility warned America or the market, that gas would rise from $1.00 in 1999, to $4.00 in 2008.

hell I got an idea…let Exxon bail out GM:lmao:

[QUOTE=metro;367762]show me one single link where anyone with credibility warned America or the market, that gas would rise from $1.00 in 1999, to $4.00 in 2008.

hell I got an idea…let Exxon bail out GM:lmao:[/QUOTE]

FTW!!!

Exxon pay up! :lmao: