I say let em declare chapter 11 and reorganize their debts etc.
I think they need a new start. One of them is atleast 70 billion in debt, hows a little patch going to help that? Yeah 10% of America will lose jobs, but Honda, Toyota and VW will swoop right in and pick the pieces and hopefully build more plants to up their own supplies.
But then again, I havent yet found clear arguments for both sides. Anyone can break it down?
I say let em declare chapter 11 and reorganize their debts etc.I think they need a new start. One of them is atleast 70 billion in debt, hows a little patch going to help that? Yeah 10% of America will lose jobs, but Honda, Toyota and VW will swoop right in and pick the pieces and hopefully build more plants to up their own supplies.
But then again, I havent yet found clear arguments for both sides. Anyone can break it down?
its quite simple. The UAW blows and has done this to themselves.
sorry, but if you bolt cars together for 30 yrs, you don’t deserve a king’s ransom to retire.
the avg Toyota costs $35 of employee benefits to construct, GM is $75, so the UAW essentially makes GM cars twice the cost.
the ONLY REASON to bail these fockers out, is because the Big 3 owe vendors tons of money. If those vendors don’t get paid, then they fail.
Yeah, unfortunately, this has more to do with who it effects outside of these companies than any other bailouts. As much as I hate giving money to them, it almost seems necessary. And I agree completely with Metro, the unions have put themselves in these spots.
[QUOTE=ChevEE;367692]Yeah, unfortunately, this has more to do with who it effects outside of these companies than any other bailouts. As much as I hate giving money to them, it almost seems necessary. And I agree completely with Metro, the unions have put themselves in these spots.[/QUOTE]
Why is it necessary? They didn’t have to supply those car companies, they chose to and now they should have to live with the fallout.
Not saying it doesn’t suck, but if they lose that money, that’s what they get for selling so much on credit.
Yeah I heard about the UAW bit of it.
Chp. 11 would let the big three organize their debts and pay those vendors back no?
this answers it all
[URL]http://www.npr.org/news/specials/gmvstoyota/[/URL]
if the big 3 could pay their people $48 per hr with all benefits included instead of $73, they’d be fine
and this:
healthcare cost per car :lmao:
[B]GM:[/B]
$1,525
[B]Toyota:[/B]
$201There is plenty of blame to go around. UAW shares a big piece, but the big 3 management has sucked ass. Their market share continues to be eroded, and they all turned their nose up in the air to vehicles with increased fuel effeciency and its biting them in the ass.
I heard the head economists at Moodys say that there is no way in hell 34 billion is going to save these compainies. More like 125 billion.
The auto execs all say that bankruptcy wont work for them because people wont buy products from companies in in reorganization. History suggests that is not true.
Toyota, Honda execs and CEO’s apparently only make a small fraction of what the big three make. I’ve read this alot, but havent found any evidence, although it isnt hard to believe.
[QUOTE=metro;367691]The UAW blows
the ONLY REASON to bail these fockers out, is because the Big 3 owe vendors tons of money. If those vendors don’t get paid, then they fail.[/QUOTE]
as someone who has worked, non-union, in the American car industry, Metro’s comment about the UAW is 100,000% DOBA.
The Big 3 could very likely reorganize until Chapter 11, well, maybe not Chrysler. GM would probably drop a carline or two.
But I have serious doubts how many of vendors would survive through that process.
Any one of the individual vendors pails in comparison to any one of the Big 3.
However, the “across the board” impact to entire market of those vendors would be significant and would be felt across multiple parts of the country.
damn glad I got out of the car industry many years ago.
BTW I did a case study on this last year and predicted this would eventually happen, but didnt expect it to be so soon! One point I made was that you can even look at their basic advertisments. For instance, the Chevy commercials. They have minimally changed over the course of 10 years. If I find the presentation I’ll upload it.
[QUOTE=JoeSixPack;367714]as someone who has worked, non-union, in the American car industry, Metro’s comment about the UAW is 100,000% DOBA.
The Big 3 could very likely reorganize until Chapter 11, well, maybe not Chrysler. GM would probably drop a carline or two.
But I have serious doubts how many of vendors would survive through that process.
Any one of the individual vendors pails in comparison to any one of the Big 3.
However, the “across the board” impact to entire market of those vendors would be significant and would be felt across multiple parts of the country.
damn glad I got out of the car industry many years ago.[/QUOTE]
Ford dropped Jaguar a while ago, and GM is planning on dropping Saturn. Anyone looking to buy a VUE should hold on for a few months and get it at a great discount.
[QUOTE=casstommy;367708]but the big 3 management has sucked ass. Their market share continues to be eroded, and they all turned their nose up in the air to vehicles with increased fuel effeciency and its biting them in the ass.
[/QUOTE]
big 3 management has been MUCH LESS THAN STELLAR, no doubt.
In the late 80’s-early 90’s, they did a lot of work on fuel efficiency.
However, because of the continually getting screwed by the UAW, the price to bring the results to market were not cost effective.
UAW has been putting the screws to the auto industry since, at least, the late 70’s.
[QUOTE=Gill2003;367716]Ford dropped Jaguar a while ago, and GM is planning on dropping Saturn. Anyone looking to buy a VUE should hold on for a few months and get it at a great discount.[/QUOTE]
don’t be surprised if GMC Truck also goes.
I’m torn on this issue.
I really want the Big Three to survive, mostly because of history and what they’ve done for the automobile industry.
The UAW is a huge problem, they care more about themselves than they do about the company. They make demands and don’t care if the company has to close down the factory. They’d rather let a factory fail than accept a pay cut.
Bankruptcy means management gets kicked out, that’s why they want the bailout. However, the sucky part is that bankruptcy will be followed by a domino effect. Suppliers go under. Advertising agencies and marketing research firms lose some big clients. Dealers have to close/lay off employees. A lot of our country depends on the automobile industry, so this could really, really suck.
Ford has asked for a line of credit, I’m not too upset about that.
Ultimately, the reason is the SUV craze. The Big 3 completely stopped caring about small to midsize cars when the American public demanded large gas guzzlers. International companies added SUV lines, but kept their sedans at the highest quality. When the gas crisis hit and people realized gas can’t be cheap forever, they started to trade in their SUVs, but the Big 3 didn’t have much to meet that demand.
And don’t get me started on GM considering dropping the Saturn brand while keeping Buick and Pontiac.
There is plenty of blame to go around. UAW shares a big piece, but the big 3 management has sucked ass. Their market share continues to be eroded, and they all turned their nose up in the air to vehicles with increased fuel effeciency and its biting them in the ass.I heard the head economists at Moodys say that there is no way in hell 34 billion is going to save these compainies. More like 125 billion.
The auto execs all say that bankruptcy wont work for them because people wont buy products from companies in in reorganization. History suggests that is not true.
also GM has approx 20,000 dealerships…Toyota 6,000 
I don’t buy into the gas efficiency argument. They all have made fuel efficient cars, if you wanted one. The Focus, the Geo line, Saturn. Not until this year were any of them cool to look at or drive. The new Saturns rock. And the Volt is soon to launch.
Plain and simple- the Big 3 had no idea gas would quadruple in price over 2 years. You can’t spen $100 to fill up a Tahoo every Monday. They would be just fine if gas risen with normal inflation 4% annually.
don't be surprised if GMC Truck also goes.
GMC truck sales are actually strong, but they should focus on business to business and drop selling that brand to the public.
I think that the bailout is only going to delay in inevitable. Pay the vendors with the bailout money, let the corporation restructure.
based on my experience in the auto industry, there is some unbelievable ignorance across the board.
…actually had a GM employee fold a 5 1/4" diskette to fit it in an envelope to mail it to me. She did not think it would matter and couldn’t find anything else to mail it in.
no old jokes because of the 5 1/4" diskette reference. For the record, I’ve also used keypunch and 8" diskettes.
based on my experience in the auto industry, there is some unbelievable ignorance across the board.…actually had a GM employee fold a 5 1/4" diskette to fit it in an envelope to mail it to me. She did not think it would matter and couldn’t find anything else to mail it in.
no old jokes because of the 5 1/4" diskette reference. For the record, I’ve also used keypunch and 8" diskettes.
I’ve heard/read great stories.
The best was that someone made a mess, but couldn’t clean it up because that was “the janitor’s job” and you can’t do anyone else’s work.
[QUOTE=J Felt;367721]The UAW is a huge problem, they care more about themselves than they do about the company. [/QUOTE]
yep, otherwise, you would’ve seen some form of hybrids much earlier from the American car companies.
I also got in trouble once for carrying a box (that fit under my arm) down the hall because I was “taking work away from a union employee”. I was “written up” and it was placed in my permanent records.