Context of History

Niner History 4901
1

The history of 49er athletics prior to my years on campus between 1997-2001 is not something I’m all that familiar with. I know the names of conferences bball played in, which coaches were awful and which coaches catapulted us into the national conversation at times, but that’s about it. The purpose of this post is to share something I saw this morning, to share my immediate thoughts, and to guage your thoughts on the same.

I googled “Sunbelt, 1985”, and saw the conference had these teams:
VCU
Jacksonville
USF
ODU
S Alabama
WKU
UAB
Charlotte

My first reaction was, “wait, none of those teams have done much more than Charlotte over the last 30 years either!” We are in a downward spiral, yes, but you can’t say anyone on that list has done anything remarkably better than Charlotte to raise their national profile over this span, right?

So my honest question is, are we harder on our leadership than we should be for where we are, or should every fanbase on that list be up in arms over their program’s lack of profile/conference growth?

This makes me think more about how the system as a whole continues to hold mid-major programs down for the betterment of the established programs. Sure, we see where we COULD have leapfrogged other programs by starting football at the right time or having an AD who knew how to get us there, but when we look at our peers from 30 years ago and realize they are all still our peers, it’s clear it is not just a Charlotte thing.

2

Look at who our peers were in CUSA 1.0 and ask that same question.

When you look at Cincy, Memphis, L’ville, TCU, ECU I cant agree with the statement we’re hard on our leadership.

3

I think the difference is we measure ourselves based on our peers in 2001 not our peers in 1985.

4

[quote=“dmastinsc, post:1, topic:32378”]The history of 49er athletics prior to my years on campus between 1997-2001 is not something I’m all that familiar with. I know the names of conferences bball played in, which coaches were awful and which coaches catapulted us into the national conversation at times, but that’s about it. The purpose of this post is to share something I saw this morning, to share my immediate thoughts, and to guage your thoughts on the same.

I googled “Sunbelt, 1985”, and saw the conference had these teams:
VCU
Jacksonville
USF
ODU
S Alabama
WKU
UAB
Charlotte

My first reaction was, “wait, none of those teams have done much more than Charlotte over the last 30 years either!” We are in a downward spiral, yes, but you can’t say anyone on that list has done anything remarkably better than Charlotte to raise their national profile over this span, right?

So my honest question is, are we harder on our leadership than we should be for where we are, or should every fanbase on that list be up in arms over their program’s lack of profile/conference growth?

This makes me think more about how the system as a whole continues to hold mid-major programs down for the betterment of the established programs. Sure, we see where we COULD have leapfrogged other programs by starting football at the right time or having an AD who knew how to get us there, but when we look at our peers from 30 years ago and realize they are all still our peers, it’s clear it is not just a Charlotte thing.[/quote]

VCU has a final 4

USF is relevant in football

5

[quote=“austinniner, post:4, topic:32378”][quote=“dmastinsc, post:1, topic:32378”]The history of 49er athletics prior to my years on campus between 1997-2001 is not something I’m all that familiar with. I know the names of conferences bball played in, which coaches were awful and which coaches catapulted us into the national conversation at times, but that’s about it. The purpose of this post is to share something I saw this morning, to share my immediate thoughts, and to guage your thoughts on the same.

I googled “Sunbelt, 1985”, and saw the conference had these teams:
VCU
Jacksonville
USF
ODU
S Alabama
WKU
UAB
Charlotte

My first reaction was, “wait, none of those teams have done much more than Charlotte over the last 30 years either!” We are in a downward spiral, yes, but you can’t say anyone on that list has done anything remarkably better than Charlotte to raise their national profile over this span, right?

So my honest question is, are we harder on our leadership than we should be for where we are, or should every fanbase on that list be up in arms over their program’s lack of profile/conference growth?

This makes me think more about how the system as a whole continues to hold mid-major programs down for the betterment of the established programs. Sure, we see where we COULD have leapfrogged other programs by starting football at the right time or having an AD who knew how to get us there, but when we look at our peers from 30 years ago and realize they are all still our peers, it’s clear it is not just a Charlotte thing.[/quote]

VCU has a final 4

USF is relevant in football[/quote]

And our peers improved to VT, Lville, Sincy, Memphis, etc

6

[quote=“austinniner, post:4, topic:32378”][quote=“dmastinsc, post:1, topic:32378”]The history of 49er athletics prior to my years on campus between 1997-2001 is not something I’m all that familiar with. I know the names of conferences bball played in, which coaches were awful and which coaches catapulted us into the national conversation at times, but that’s about it. The purpose of this post is to share something I saw this morning, to share my immediate thoughts, and to guage your thoughts on the same.

I googled “Sunbelt, 1985”, and saw the conference had these teams:
VCU
Jacksonville
USF
ODU
S Alabama
WKU
UAB
Charlotte

My first reaction was, “wait, none of those teams have done much more than Charlotte over the last 30 years either!” We are in a downward spiral, yes, but you can’t say anyone on that list has done anything remarkably better than Charlotte to raise their national profile over this span, right?

So my honest question is, are we harder on our leadership than we should be for where we are, or should every fanbase on that list be up in arms over their program’s lack of profile/conference growth?

This makes me think more about how the system as a whole continues to hold mid-major programs down for the betterment of the established programs. Sure, we see where we COULD have leapfrogged other programs by starting football at the right time or having an AD who knew how to get us there, but when we look at our peers from 30 years ago and realize they are all still our peers, it’s clear it is not just a Charlotte thing.[/quote]

VCU has a final 4

USF is relevant in football[/quote]

USF was ranked as high as #2 in the country at one point in football

WKU has made a couple of Sweet 16s since then

UAB had a Sweet 16 Run

7

What I’m seeing most of you share are a handful of accomplishments by these other programs that have done as much for them as our once upon a time accomplishments have for us.

Per the mentions of Cincy and Louisville, I see how comparing to them is perhaps more accurate. However, a program like Louisville is the exception, not the rule, no? As are programs like Gonzaga basketball or Boise State football.

Overall, it still sounds as if accomplishments, no matter how big, do not elevate a program unless that success is sustained over a long period of time until all the other stars align that allows a mid-major to somehow break through that ceiling. A program like UCF will be interesting to watch, in this regard. History tells us that in 10 years, UCF will still be amongst the also-rans of college football and not a perennial contender we all hope they are, just so we can keep believing it could happen at Charlotte.

8

Yeeeeeaaaaah. VCU has had 24+ wins in something like 11 straight seasons (tied with Kansas). They’ve sold out for 4+ years straight, they have a final four and a nice 7 consecutive tournament streak going (all of which will probably end this year, but they’ll still end with a winning record, etc.).

They have the 10th highest winning percentage of all college basketball programs in history (just above Villanova and behind Arizona). BTW, Western Kentucky is 8th. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_teams_with_the_highest_winning_percentage_in_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_college_basketball

Since the turn of the century they have 10 NCAA appearances (including a final four) and two NIT appearances. Since 06-07 (the first year of Anthony Grant) they have gone:

28-7
24-8
24-10
27-9
28-12
29-7
28-12
29-7
27-9
26-9
26-10
25-11
26-8
(290-100)

during which time they won 4 conference regular season titles (with 4 2nd place finishes) and 4 conference tournament titles.

9

[quote=“NewNiner, post:8, topic:32378”]Yeeeeeaaaaah. VCU has had 24+ wins in something like 11 straight seasons (tied with Kansas). They’ve sold out for 4+ years straight, they have a final four and a nice 7 consecutive tournament streak going (all of which will probably end this year, but they’ll still end with a winning record, etc.).

They have the 10th highest winning percentage of all college basketball programs in history (just above Villanova and behind Arizona). BTW, Western Kentucky is 8th. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_teams_with_the_highest_winning_percentage_in_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_college_basketball

Since the turn of the century they have 10 NCAA appearances (including a final four) and two NIT appearances. Since 06-07 (the first year of Anthony Grant) they have gone:

28-7
24-8
24-10
27-9
28-12
29-7
28-12
29-7
27-9
26-9
26-10
25-11
26-8
(290-100)

during which time they won 4 conference regular season titles (with 4 2nd place finishes) and 4 conference tournament titles.[/quote]

I think this too is a perfect example of sustained success, yet the stars have not aligned in a way that has allowed them to elevate to a P5 conference, and are still a program most casual fans know very little to nothing about. They averaged about 7,400 fans per game the last couple seasons, which we can claim we have done as well for an extended period at one point.

To reiterate my original point, it wasn’t to comparing Charlotte to these teams as far as once upon a time success or even current success, but to highlight the fact that we are right there with every single one of them as schools who have had success at one time or another, yet here we all still are, relatively still peers.

10

If your point is, “this is interesting”, it’s kind of hard to debate that logic.

If your point is, “maybe we’ve been too hard on the AD”, I disagree.

For me, regardless of which conference we are in, I think a reasonable expectation is to try to be top 3 in that conference. Not only are we not top 3 in our conference, we have both the worst football team and basketball team in the entire country. It doesn’t get any lower than that. It was time for a change.

11

[quote=“dmastinsc, post:9, topic:32378”][quote=“NewNiner, post:8, topic:32378”]Yeeeeeaaaaah. VCU has had 24+ wins in something like 11 straight seasons (tied with Kansas). They’ve sold out for 4+ years straight, they have a final four and a nice 7 consecutive tournament streak going (all of which will probably end this year, but they’ll still end with a winning record, etc.).

They have the 10th highest winning percentage of all college basketball programs in history (just above Villanova and behind Arizona). BTW, Western Kentucky is 8th. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_teams_with_the_highest_winning_percentage_in_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_college_basketball

Since the turn of the century they have 10 NCAA appearances (including a final four) and two NIT appearances. Since 06-07 (the first year of Anthony Grant) they have gone:

28-7
24-8
24-10
27-9
28-12
29-7
28-12
29-7
27-9
26-9
26-10
25-11
26-8
(290-100)

during which time they won 4 conference regular season titles (with 4 2nd place finishes) and 4 conference tournament titles.[/quote]

I think this too is a perfect example of sustained success, yet the stars have not aligned in a way that has allowed them to elevate to a P5 conference, and are still a program most casual fans know very little to nothing about. They averaged about 7,400 fans per game the last couple seasons, which we can claim we have done as well for an extended period at one point.

To reiterate my original point, it wasn’t to comparing Charlotte to these teams as far as once upon a time success or even current success, but to highlight the fact that we are right there with every single one of them as schools who have had success at one time or another, yet here we all still are, relatively still peers.[/quote]

They won’t elevate to a “P5” conference because they don’t have a football team. That pretty much ends the discussion. Also 7400 is pretty much the capacity of their arena, as I’ve said - they sellout repeatedly.

Charlotte has had success, but when you’re discussing peers it depends on what your criteria is. They are a large school in an urban environment - thus “peer.” If you asked a casual basketball fan, they would know who VCU is and that they’ve been pretty good for a long period of time (and Shaka Smart, Havoc, etc.) - thus “not peer.” It’s hard to argue that we’re on par with a program that is 10th in all-time winning percentage with the type of success listed above. We both have one final four and no national titles, but their’s is a lot more recent, which cannot be dismissed when discussing the current positioning of the schools relative to each other. If you’re discussing current status, then I would say “not peer.” If you’re discussing ceiling/potential, then I would say “peer” except that we also have football.

I don’t think it’s fair to say that we’re in practically the same position as some of the schools you’re mentioning, though (at the very least, they have one helluva head start on us, even if they’re similar in potential). Old rivals (Cincy, Louisville, Kentucky, Marquette, Memphis) have all outstripped us. Former conference mates have done similarly (Temple, VCU, etc.). CUSA isn’t the A-10’s peer in basketball. It has potential, IMO, but the A-10 has time and again proven itself to be a formidable basketball conference.

12

We could have turned into VCU or USF… but we turned into Jacksonville… That’s reason enough for all the venom. We were failed by our leadership.

13

[quote=“Normmm, post:10, topic:32378”]If your point is, “this is interesting”, it’s kind of hard to debate that logic.

If your point is, “maybe we’ve been too hard on the AD”, I disagree.

For me, regardless of which conference we are in, I think a reasonable expectation is to try to be top 3 in that conference. Not only are we not top 3 in our conference, we have both the worst football team and basketball team in the entire country. It doesn’t get any lower than that. It was time for a change.[/quote]

Yes, the logic started as “this is interesting”, but as I contemplated, it moved more to the realization that as bad as Judy has been for so long, we aren’t that much worse off than these others. At first glance you may say, “WTF, NOT MUCH WORSE OFF???”, but wins and losses come and go with every program. If we land a good AD, hire a couple of good coaches, our wins will come back in the next 5 years.

Judy was awful, her hires have been awful and her management of contracts were awful. And still yet, a couple winning seasons in our revenue sports and we have achieved as much as nearly all these other programs over 30+ years.

I guess my perspective is that unless we become the exception over the next decade, we can see our program’s ceiling even from the rock bottom we are currently at.

14

[quote=“NewNiner, post:11, topic:32378”][quote=“dmastinsc, post:9, topic:32378”][quote=“NewNiner, post:8, topic:32378”]Yeeeeeaaaaah. VCU has had 24+ wins in something like 11 straight seasons (tied with Kansas). They’ve sold out for 4+ years straight, they have a final four and a nice 7 consecutive tournament streak going (all of which will probably end this year, but they’ll still end with a winning record, etc.).

They have the 10th highest winning percentage of all college basketball programs in history (just above Villanova and behind Arizona). BTW, Western Kentucky is 8th. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_teams_with_the_highest_winning_percentage_in_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_college_basketball

Since the turn of the century they have 10 NCAA appearances (including a final four) and two NIT appearances. Since 06-07 (the first year of Anthony Grant) they have gone:

28-7
24-8
24-10
27-9
28-12
29-7
28-12
29-7
27-9
26-9
26-10
25-11
26-8
(290-100)

during which time they won 4 conference regular season titles (with 4 2nd place finishes) and 4 conference tournament titles.[/quote]

I think this too is a perfect example of sustained success, yet the stars have not aligned in a way that has allowed them to elevate to a P5 conference, and are still a program most casual fans know very little to nothing about. They averaged about 7,400 fans per game the last couple seasons, which we can claim we have done as well for an extended period at one point.

To reiterate my original point, it wasn’t to comparing Charlotte to these teams as far as once upon a time success or even current success, but to highlight the fact that we are right there with every single one of them as schools who have had success at one time or another, yet here we all still are, relatively still peers.[/quote]

They won’t elevate to a “P5” conference because they don’t have a football team. That pretty much ends the discussion. Also 7400 is pretty much the capacity of their arena, as I’ve said - they sellout repeatedly.

Charlotte has had success, but when you’re discussing peers it depends on what your criteria is. They are a large school in an urban environment - thus “peer.” If you asked a casual basketball fan, they would know who VCU is and that they’ve been pretty good for a long period of time (and Shaka Smart, Havoc, etc.) - thus “not peer.” It’s hard to argue that we’re on par with a program that is 10th in all-time winning percentage with the type of success listed above. We both have one final four and no national titles, but their’s is a lot more recent, which cannot be dismissed when discussing the current positioning of the schools relative to each other. If you’re discussing current status, then I would say “not peer.” If you’re discussing ceiling/potential, then I would say “peer” except that we also have football.

I don’t think it’s fair to say that we’re in practically the same position as some of the schools you’re mentioning, though (at the very least, they have one helluva head start on us, even if they’re similar in potential). Old rivals (Cincy, Louisville, Kentucky, Marquette, Memphis) have all outstripped us. Former conference mates have done similarly (Temple, VCU, etc.). CUSA isn’t the A-10’s peer in basketball. It has potential, IMO, but the A-10 has time and again proven itself to be a formidable basketball conference.[/quote]

I agree that VCU is by far the most successful program from the Sunbelt of 85, and to my point, another exception when they have exceeded all these other programs by a wide margin. I can only speak anecdotally on whether a “casual” fan knows much about VCU because I would consider myself a casual fan. Since Charlotte began sucking ballz, I’ve barely kept up with the sport. When I made the original post, I was going on the fact that I knew VCU had been good, but I had no idea if they were still good. Shaka Smart is the last thing I remember about them. I think it’s safe to say Shaka meant a lot more to Charlotte fans than anyone else because they were from OUR conference. When I ask my coworkers who went to South Carolina, Clemson and Georgia, they can’t remember where Shaka Smart came from, nor can they tell me anything about VCU currently, only that they know the name and know they’ve been legit at some point recently.

So, anecdotally, I would say VCU still isn’t that far ahead of us once we figure out how to have a couple winning seasons in the next decade. And that’s after the loooong run they’ve had with their basketball program.

15

clt says athlete experience needs to be factored in as well.

16

[quote=“dmastinsc, post:14, topic:32378”][quote=“NewNiner, post:11, topic:32378”][quote=“dmastinsc, post:9, topic:32378”][quote=“NewNiner, post:8, topic:32378”]Yeeeeeaaaaah. VCU has had 24+ wins in something like 11 straight seasons (tied with Kansas). They’ve sold out for 4+ years straight, they have a final four and a nice 7 consecutive tournament streak going (all of which will probably end this year, but they’ll still end with a winning record, etc.).

They have the 10th highest winning percentage of all college basketball programs in history (just above Villanova and behind Arizona). BTW, Western Kentucky is 8th. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_teams_with_the_highest_winning_percentage_in_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_college_basketball

Since the turn of the century they have 10 NCAA appearances (including a final four) and two NIT appearances. Since 06-07 (the first year of Anthony Grant) they have gone:

28-7
24-8
24-10
27-9
28-12
29-7
28-12
29-7
27-9
26-9
26-10
25-11
26-8
(290-100)

during which time they won 4 conference regular season titles (with 4 2nd place finishes) and 4 conference tournament titles.[/quote]

I think this too is a perfect example of sustained success, yet the stars have not aligned in a way that has allowed them to elevate to a P5 conference, and are still a program most casual fans know very little to nothing about. They averaged about 7,400 fans per game the last couple seasons, which we can claim we have done as well for an extended period at one point.

To reiterate my original point, it wasn’t to comparing Charlotte to these teams as far as once upon a time success or even current success, but to highlight the fact that we are right there with every single one of them as schools who have had success at one time or another, yet here we all still are, relatively still peers.[/quote]

They won’t elevate to a “P5” conference because they don’t have a football team. That pretty much ends the discussion. Also 7400 is pretty much the capacity of their arena, as I’ve said - they sellout repeatedly.

Charlotte has had success, but when you’re discussing peers it depends on what your criteria is. They are a large school in an urban environment - thus “peer.” If you asked a casual basketball fan, they would know who VCU is and that they’ve been pretty good for a long period of time (and Shaka Smart, Havoc, etc.) - thus “not peer.” It’s hard to argue that we’re on par with a program that is 10th in all-time winning percentage with the type of success listed above. We both have one final four and no national titles, but their’s is a lot more recent, which cannot be dismissed when discussing the current positioning of the schools relative to each other. If you’re discussing current status, then I would say “not peer.” If you’re discussing ceiling/potential, then I would say “peer” except that we also have football.

I don’t think it’s fair to say that we’re in practically the same position as some of the schools you’re mentioning, though (at the very least, they have one helluva head start on us, even if they’re similar in potential). Old rivals (Cincy, Louisville, Kentucky, Marquette, Memphis) have all outstripped us. Former conference mates have done similarly (Temple, VCU, etc.). CUSA isn’t the A-10’s peer in basketball. It has potential, IMO, but the A-10 has time and again proven itself to be a formidable basketball conference.[/quote]

I agree that VCU is by far the most successful program from the Sunbelt of 85, and to my point, another exception when they have exceeded all these other programs by a wide margin. I can only speak anecdotally on whether a “casual” fan knows much about VCU because I would consider myself a casual fan. Since Charlotte began sucking ballz, I’ve barely kept up with the sport. When I made the original post, I was going on the fact that I knew VCU had been good, but I had no idea if they were still good. Shaka Smart is the last thing I remember about them. I think it’s safe to say Shaka meant a lot more to Charlotte fans than anyone else because they were from OUR conference. When I ask my coworkers who went to South Carolina, Clemson and Georgia, they can’t remember where Shaka Smart came from, nor can they tell me anything about VCU currently, only that they know the name and know they’ve been legit at some point recently.

So, anecdotally, I would say VCU still isn’t that far ahead of us once we figure out how to have a couple winning seasons in the next decade. And that’s after the loooong run they’ve had with their basketball program.[/quote]

I think the reason VCU’s profile isn’t any higher is because they don’t have football. I still think their profile is pretty damn high. Higher than ours was when we were in C-USA 1.0.

17

If you follow the logic, why are we starting here. Wouldn’t you just go back to the start and call it all good? Once we went o CUSA 1.0 the base for comparison changed, just like it did with every move. If we sucked in CUSA, then maybe not. However we overachieved.

18

Sure, there are points to be made if comparing against all our peers at each level from the beginning. However, I would say that starting in the mid-to-late 80s is perhaps more relevant since isn’t that when we consider “big time college sports” to have really taken off, and thus the money, prestige and power that became so guarded by more established programs becoming much harder to break into?

19

Agree with a lot of the logic dmastinsc. I think most casual fans lump progams into 3 general categories:

  1. P5 teams

I think a lot of casual fans would put programs like Northwestern above Houston just for conference affiliation alone.

  1. “Successful” G5 teams (i.e. Cincy, memphis)

These teams are respected and “legitimate” in the eyes of most.

  1. The “Hey, they’re actually pretty good aren’t they?” teams.

If these teams beat the casual P5 fan’s team, they havent given up on their team week 1 into the season. But still act surprised if they beat their team, even if their team was the underdog. I think VCU, Wichita St, etc fall into this category. But even teams with relatively recent, but unsustained, success do not get the nod here (i.e. half of the A-10).

If your team does not fall in the above 3 categories, you might as well not talk about your favorite team to the casual fan.

If you work for a company in Nebraska, your “casual fan” coworker will add as much to the conversation of your fandom if you are a Charlotte fan or a Rhode Island fan, even though URI has recently been ranked in basketball.

What I want from our program is for us to get to the point where I can tell the “casual fan” that I’m a Charlotte fan without the awkward pause of the “are you serious…you really dont have a favorite SEC or ACC team?” The easiest, most realistic way for us to earn legitamacy in these conversations would be to earn an invite to the AAC. Otherwise we need to consistently make it to NCAAs and bowl games…and even then we would need to somehow improve the conference we’re in (whether thats CUSA drastically improving or parlaying success to an AAC invite). With a new AD I think we can get to this point, but we really have our work cut out for us.

20

You’re going back to the days when we were down. We built our program up and moved conferences until we were in the Conference USA. In basketball, we were one of the stronger basketball conferences, sending 3-6 teams to the NCAA each year and we were a contender every year.

The power conferences started their expansions. We were primed to move into the Big East but our esteemed AD refused to start football and decided we should go to the A10 and that’s the beginning of the end.

Now you say those other schools haven’t jumped either and even with that assumption, we have gotten worse. We are in arguably a weaker basketball conference now and haven’t been a contender yet.