Lutz vs peers

49ers Basketball Forum šŸ€
1

I thought Iā€™d compare Lutz to some of his peers, maybe I picked fair comparisons, maybe not. Tried to pick similar age and tenure, school focus on hoops, similar conf affiliation, and equal program scope who have had some success. Iā€™d say Jerry Wainwright is very similar to Lutz consistency wise. I wanted to include Greg Marshal, but people would put down his accomplishments at Winthrop and the Big South, so he is ommitted. Mike Anderen at UAB comes to mind too, but he left for Mizzou.

Bob Huggins - Cincy/KSU/WVU
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Huggins

Phil Martelli (had some awful yrs 97-99 at St Joes)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Martelli

Tom Crean - Marq
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Crean_(basketball_coach)

Jerry Wainwright - UNCW - Depaul
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Wainwright

Dana Altman - Creighton (wow)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana_Altman

Lutz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Lutz

I donā€™t have a problem if every 4 years we reboot and go 14-16, but this will be 4 yrs in a row of non NCAA play. Lutz is 54-47 since joining the A10. [U][B]At this current rate, we will be sub .500 since joining the A10.[/B][/U] :unhappy:

Why the hell is there such a disparity from the first half of his tenure vs the second half???

I would hope Lutz for the good of the program resigns if he canā€™t get this year turned around- we canā€™t afford a buyout. I still also believe he is often handcuffed by Judy, and the industry knows her reputation doing this to him. I know the green Koolaid gang denies that- but its true. I fear the only coach willing to come here-- would be desperate. If Lutz is gone, our choices are green 33 yr old rookie, or retread 55 yr old.

*disclaimer, I love Lutz but something has got to give.

2
Why the hell is there such a disparity from the first half of his tenure vs the second half???
My take: Conference change coming right when he was planning to leave for a bigger program that fell through and killed his spirit, coupled with an unhealthy reliance on short-term fixes for holes using 2-year jucos and transfers. Now that he has the extension, not sure if he has the same urgency that seemed to really change some things last year (the D especially). On the other hand, recruiting does seem to have improved (though we are again relying on a juco, possibly a good player, that will leave after next year). The poor player development is also fairly consistent, particularly for the big men.
I fear the only coach willing to come here-- would be desperate. If Lutz is gone, our choices are green 33 yr old rookie, or retread 55 yr old.
Please no retreads. This isn't such a bad situation. It's tough to recruit here, but not impossible. The facilities are quite good. Lutz could have left for a bigger program by now if several of his teams hadn't greatly underachieved. It sounded like Moxley was being set up to coach here, but if Lutz leaves in disgrace, what are the chances of that? Could we possibly expect Moxley to change things up enough? We need an entirely new offense, a decent defensive coach, and a strong recruiter.

Itā€™s frustrating, but probably better evaluated towards the end of the season, when we see just how bad things get. Or maybe Lutz pulls a miracle out of his $$$ and we all get to eat crow.

3

So, maybe we should combine these threads?

[URL]http://www.ninernation.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22147[/URL]

4

Lutz has no peers. He is a king among men. Braveheart was actually written about Lutz, but they disguised it as dark-age Scotland so it wasnā€™t obvious.

5
So, maybe we should combine these threads?

http://www.ninernation.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22147

attention lovers need their own thread to reply to other threads

6

When I saw Providence had Kino Davis, I was like ā€˜Shoot, why canā€™t we have someone like that!?ā€™ Lutz at one time had that luster.

7

:lmao:

Lutz has no peers. He is a king among men. Braveheart was actually written about Lutz, but they disguised it as dark-age Scotland so it wasnā€™t obvious.
:lmao:

8

[QUOTE=metro;365789]*disclaimer, I love Lutz but something has got to give.[/QUOTE]

My feelings exactly. You can love a coach so much but when you continue to lose and underachieve, after a while, enough is enough. Weā€™re looking at 4 straight years of no NCAA and I am starting to wonder when will Lutz ever get this program back to the NCAAā€™s. I donā€™t believe the program collapses if Lutz leaves.

9

this thread should combine with the otherā€¦I didnā€™t see the other thread because it was not on the frontpage

10

again in all fairness the conference affiliation and major changes in the landscape left us outā€¦, bball program has been trying to hold on. As we look back on this time, we will see that these are all transitional times. Not adding football during CUSA days, will put us back some time, and has dramatically impacted our bball program.

We are now trying to urgently fix that problem, but, it may be 20 yrs to move back up the college sports ladder. As we know, in 5 to 10 yrs, we will be playing d1 football and will need to move to a conference that can offer us some tv time and schedule, that will probably be the Sun Belt (by the way nothing wrong with that, but not great for bball). Then we will have to work our way up/thru new conferences affiliations, after some time in the Sun Belt and then to CUSA etcā€¦

11

Good coaches can make it happen. Look at what Davidson is doing in the Southern Conference. They have it much tougher recruiting than we do.
Look at what Marshall did at Winthrop for years.

Bottom lineā€¦Bobby is not that good of a coach.

12
Good coaches can make it happen. Look at what Davidson is doing in the Southern Conference. They have it much tougher recruiting than we do. Look at what Marshall did at Winthrop for years.

Bottom lineā€¦Bobby is not that good of a coach.

I agree that Marshall and McKillop have done good jobs. But you really canā€™t compare them with us because of the conferences they play in. If you really want to compare them then compare what Lutz did at Pfeiffer, which would be comparable to what those guys have accomplished in their conferences.

13

Look at the times we have made the NCAA tourney and see what other comparable or lower programs (at the time) made runs in the tournament.

[B]1999[/B]
[SIZE=1][/SIZE]
[U]Mid-Major Conferences[/U]
#10 Gonzaga - Elite 8
#10 Miami (OH) - Sweet 16
#12 Southwest Missouri State - Sweet 16

[U]C-USA[/U]
#3 Cincinnati - 2nd Round
#5 Charlotte - 2nd Round
#7 Louisville - 1st Round
#12 UAB - 1st Round

[U]A-10[/U]
#6 Temple - Elite 8
#11 George Washington - 1st Round
#12 Rhode Island - 1st Round

[B]2001[/B]

[U]Mid-Major Conferences[/U]
#12 Gonzaga - Sweet 16

[U]C-USA[/U]
#3 Cincinnati - Sweet 16
#9 Charlotte - 2nd Round

[U]A-10[/U]
#9 St. Joeā€™s - 2nd Round
#11 Temple - Elite 8
#11 Xavier - 1st Round

[B]2002[/B]

[U]Mid-Major Conferences[/U]
#10 Kent State - Elite 8
#11 Southern Illinois - Sweet 16

[U]C-USA[/U]
#1 Cincinnati - 2nd Round
#5 Marquette - 1st Round
#9 Charlotte - 1st Round

[U]A-10[/U]
#7 Xavier - 2nd Round

[B]2004[/B]

[U]Mid-Major Conferences[/U]
#10 Nevada - Sweet 16

[U]C-USA[/U]
#3 Cincinnati - 2nd Round
#7 Memphis - 2nd Round
#7 DePaul - 2nd Round
#9 Charlotte - 1st Round
#9 UAB - Sweet 16
#10 Louisville - 1st Round

[U]A-10[/U]
#1 St. Joeā€™s - Elite 8
#7 Xavier - Elite 8
#10 Dayton - 1st Round
#11 Richmond - 1st Round

[B]2005[/B]

[U]Mid-Major Conferences[/U]
#12 UW-Milwaukee - Sweet 16

[U]C-USA[/U]
#4 Louisville - Final 4
#7 Cincinnati - 2nd Round
#10 Charlotte - 1st Round
#11 UAB - 2nd Round

[U]A-10[/U]
#12 George Washington - 1st Round

Iā€™m bored.

14
Look at the times we have made the NCAA tourney and see what other comparable or lower programs (at the time) made runs in the tournament.

1999

Mid-Major Conferences
#10 Gonzaga - Elite 8
#10 Miami (OH) - Sweet 16
#12 Southwest Missouri State - Sweet 16

C-USA
#3 Cincinnati - 2nd Round
#5 Charlotte - 2nd Round
#7 Louisville - 1st Round
#12 UAB - 1st Round

A-10
#6 Temple - Elite 8
#11 George Washington - 1st Round
#12 Rhode Island - 1st Round

2001

Mid-Major Conferences
#12 Gonzaga - Sweet 16

C-USA
#3 Cincinnati - Sweet 16
#9 Charlotte - 2nd Round

A-10
#9 St. Joeā€™s - 2nd Round
#11 Temple - Elite 8
#11 Xavier - 1st Round

2002

Mid-Major Conferences
#10 Kent State - Elite 8
#11 Southern Illinois - Sweet 16

C-USA
#1 Cincinnati - 2nd Round
#5 Marquette - 1st Round
#9 Charlotte - 1st Round

A-10
#7 Xavier - 2nd Round

2004

Mid-Major Conferences
#10 Nevada - Sweet 16

C-USA
#3 Cincinnati - 2nd Round
#7 Memphis - 2nd Round
#7 DePaul - 2nd Round
#9 Charlotte - 1st Round
#9 UAB - Sweet 16
#10 Louisville - 1st Round

A-10
#1 St. Joeā€™s - Elite 8
#7 Xavier - Elite 8
#10 Dayton - 1st Round
#11 Richmond - 1st Round

2005

Mid-Major Conferences
#12 UW-Milwaukee - Sweet 16

C-USA
#4 Louisville - Final 4
#7 Cincinnati - 2nd Round
#10 Charlotte - 1st Round
#11 UAB - 2nd Round

A-10
#12 George Washington - 1st Round

Iā€™m bored.

Nice work. Iā€™m not sure anything really jumps out at me though. Except for the fact that Gonzaga made a nice couple of runs. And I would love for us to find a Mark Few. But that really is a rarity to find a coach like that. Of course that doesnā€™t mean I think we should give up hope in finding something like that. Just saying itā€™s rare.

As for the others on the list, it appears to me that some had a nice season, but nobody sustained consistent runs. Maybe the stars aligned as far as having favorable match ups and special players. One could argue that Cincy underachieved, and I think Huggins is an excellent coach.

I think the Rodney White team could have made a run. But we definitely got screwed with the seeding that year with getting a 9 seed and having to play a 1 in the second round. That same year Cincy got a 5 seed, played a 13 seed in the second round, and made it to the Sweet 16.

Other than that Iā€™m not sure weā€™ve had the talent to make a deep run.

2002 we did lay an egg. But to be fair that is the year our best player, Jobey was sick for the game. ND had at least 3 NBA players on their roster. Of course we had 0.

2004 we got a 9 seed and lost to an 8 seed by 3. Texas Tech had 2 NBA players. Again we had 0. Gonzaga a 2 seed, loses to 10 seed Nevada. UAB makes it to the sweet 16, but only wins their first round game by 2. Could have easily been 1 and done.

2005 I do think we laid an egg again NC State. But it should again be noted that NCSU had 3 pro players. We had 0. 10 seed NCSU went on to beat #2 seed UConn.

I know these are going to be perceived as excuses. But really Iā€™m just making obsevations.

15
Nice work. I'm not sure anything really jumps out at me though. Except for the fact that Gonzaga made a nice couple of runs. And I would love for us to find a Mark Few. But that really is a rarity to find a coach like that. Of course that doesn't mean I think we should give up hope in finding something like that. Just saying it's rare.

As for the others on the list, it appears to me that some had a nice season, but nobody sustained consistent runs. Maybe the stars aligned as far as having favorable match ups and special players. One could argue that Cincy underachieved, and I think Huggins is an excellent coach.

I think the Rodney White team could have made a run. But we definitely got screwed with the seeding that year with getting a 9 seed and having to play a 1 in the second round. That same year Cincy got a 5 seed, played a 13 seed in the second round, and made it to the Sweet 16.

Other than that Iā€™m not sure weā€™ve had the talent to make a deep run.

2002 we did lay an egg. But to be fair that is the year our best player, Jobey was sick for the game. ND had at least 3 NBA players on their roster. Of course we had 0.

2004 we got a 9 seed and lost to an 8 seed by 3. Texas Tech had 2 NBA players. Again we had 0. Gonzaga a 2 seed, loses to 10 seed Nevada. UAB makes it to the sweet 16, but only wins their first round game by 2. Could have easily been 1 and done.

2005 I do think we laid an egg again NC State. But it should again be noted that NCSU had 3 pro players. We had 0. 10 seed NCSU went on to beat #2 seed UConn.

I know these are going to be perceived as excuses. But really Iā€™m just making obsevations.

We donā€™t get crewed on seeding, we donā€™t take care of business early to deserve better seeding than we get. 99 we were in a good position as a 5 seed and pissed it away.

Without Jobey in 02, we were tied at halftime and laid an egg in the second half.

In 2004 we played a Texas Tech team that had similar talent, if you are going to say they had 2 NBA players than so did we. That was a game we should have won and again Bobby and Co. laid another egg.

In 2005 we played a NC State team that we were superiour too talent wise, we lost that game on defense and coaching. Once they got physical with us, we backed down. Again, a 7 seed was because we **** the bed down the stretch, if we would have played decent in the Louisville game on we would have been a 4 or 5 seed.

The bottom line is we peaked in 05 and got a 7 seed and 1st round loss. How can one feasibly think that Bobby can do any better than that now???

16
We don't get crewed on seeding, we don't take care of business early to deserve better seeding than we get. 99 we were in a good position as a 5 seed and pissed it away.

Without Jobey in 02, we were tied at halftime and laid an egg in the second half.

In 2004 we played a Texas Tech team that had similar talent, if you are going to say they had 2 NBA players than so did we. That was a game we should have won and again Bobby and Co. laid another egg.

In 2005 we played a NC State team that we were superiour too talent wise, we lost that game on defense and coaching. Once they got physical with us, we backed down. Again, a 7 seed was because we **** the bed down the stretch, if we would have played decent in the Louisville game on we would have been a 4 or 5 seed.

The bottom line is we peaked in 05 and got a 7 seed and 1st round loss. How can one feasibly think that Bobby can do any better than that now???

So weā€™re the only team thatā€™s never got a bad break with seeding?

I guess we just disagree on the talent. That State team had a 15th over all pick and a 20th over all pick, and a possibility of Gavin Grant getting drafted. Hodge was an ACC player of the year. Eddie was not drafted, but youā€™re right, he did make it to the NBA. And Eddie was a CUSA player of the year.

That Texas Tech team had the #1 and #2 career points (Emmett and Jackson) and #1 in all time minutes played (Ross) in TT history. Emmett became their all time leading scorer in just 3 seasons, while averaging 19, 21 and 20 points per game.

As far as Jobey, I canā€™t think of 1 team that wouldnā€™t think it was a hindrance having their best player ill.

17
So we're the only team that's never got a bad break with seeding?

I guess we just disagree on the talent. That State team had a 15th over all pick and a 20th over all pick, and a possibility of Gavin Grant getting drafted. Hodge was an ACC player of the year. Eddie was not drafted, but youā€™re right, he did make it to the NBA. And Eddie was a CUSA player of the year.

That Texas Tech team had the #1 and #2 career points (Emmett and Jackson) and #1 in all time minutes played (Ross) in TT history. Emmett became their all time leading scorer in just 3 seasons, while averaging 19, 21 and 20 points per game.

As far as Jobey, I canā€™t think of 1 team that wouldnā€™t think it was a hindrance having their best player ill.

Tons of teams get ā€œscrewedā€ on seedings, but we use it as an excuse far too often. The bottom line is each of those years we did it to ourselves, we didnā€™t take care of business versus low-level teams or would have terrible stretches. Look at the two times we made the NCAAs where Temple made the Elite 8ā€¦a 6 seed was their best and the other time they were an 11 seed.

We continue to give our program a pass and use these excuses. The bottom line they are supposed to perform and we have severely under-performed, even when we were good.

I said this before last year and I still say it today, we saw what Lutzā€™s best at Charlotte was, why do we think we can do any better in a conference he has yet to adapt to?

18

My take for what itā€™s worth. We canā€™t be afraid of change. Lutz is a hard worker but things have really went south in the last 4 years. There were very high hopes going into this year. Lutz even made bold statements to the Observer before the season that this team had every component of his past best teams. If the talent is there, which he thought it was going into this season, then that leaves only 1 person to blame.

No coach in the country is safe when things go this bad, so why should Lutz be any different?

19

Great memory, Ruckus! I remember that quote from Lutz about this yearā€™s team. Got all excited and we are now 1-6? OMG!