I love Frank Thomas as a player and think he put up his numbers cleanly but just because he offered to take blood tests it doesn’t mean he wasn’t using. Sammy Sosa offered to be tested but quickly changed his mind when he was actually confronted with a test he quickly changed his mind.
Unless he went on his own and got tested and has held on to the results for proof unfortunately we will never know if he did steroids or not.
I love Frank Thomas as a player and think he put up his numbers cleanly but just because he offered to take blood tests it doesn't mean he wasn't using. Sammy Sosa offered to be tested but quickly changed his mind when he was actually confronted with a test he quickly changed his mind.Unless he went on his own and got tested and has held on to the results for proof unfortunately we will never know if he did steroids or not.
Believe what you want, but back in the late 90’s, he and the entire team caused a big stink about wanting to get themselves and the whole league tested. Needless to say, Donald Fehr didn’t let this happen.
Also, Thomas was huge in college (he was on the Auburn football) team, and stayed the same size pretty much his whole career. And he always looked naturally big, not roid big.
I agree with you 100% that he wasn’t using. And as a lifelong Braves and White Sox fan I am well aware of how big he was when he came into the league but with what has come out in the last few years it’s hard to say who did or didn’t use steroids.
Right or wrong Donald Fehr was doing his job in keeping testing for steroids out of baseball for as long as he could. But if a player wants to be tested all he has to do is give a sample to his personal physician to be sent out for testing. What do you think Donald Fehr would have done if Frank Thomas would’ve gotten tested and publicized the results? I guarantee you had he been punished for proving he was clean than the backlash to MLB would be far greater than anything we have seen to date.
I am a huge Mattingly fan, have over 2,000 of his baseball cards. To see people on here describe him as just “really good” pains me. Before he started having back problems (around '90-'91), he was the BEST player in baseball. PERIOD! Not even close. '84 batting champ,'85 AL MVP, still holds several MLB records. Don’t compare his stats to the roid users of today. He hit for average and power in during his era.
His own peers (Kirby Puckett being the most out-spoken) have said there is no way he should not be in the HOF. Puckett was a first ballot HOF, played during the same time period and essentially has the same stats from the plate. What’s the difference between Puckett getting in and Mattingly not. (Note: I think Puckett deserves to be in Cooperstown.)
Even comparing him to Cal Ripken, what makes Ripken’s #'s so much greater except for longevity?
Ripken - 21 seasons, .276 AVG, 23 HR, 33 2B, 172 hits, 89 runs, 61 BB, .340 OBP, .447 SLG, .788 OPS
Mattingly - 14 seasons, .307 AVG, 20 HR, 40 2B, 195 hits, 91 runs, 53 BB, .358 OBP, .471 SLG, .830 OPS
[QUOTE=N1NER;418871]
Even comparing him to Cal Ripken, what makes Ripken’s #'s so much greater except for longevity?
Ripken - 21 seasons, .276 AVG, 23 HR, 33 2B, 172 hits, 89 runs, 61 BB, .340 OBP, .447 SLG, .788 OPS
Mattingly - 14 seasons, .307 AVG, 20 HR, 40 2B, 195 hits, 91 runs, 53 BB, .358 OBP, .471 SLG, .830 OPS[/QUOTE]
You’re comparing apples to oranges. Nobody should make the HOF based on comparsion to another player. If anything, at least find another 1B to compare him to.
[QUOTE=bleedsgreenandgold;418872]You’re comparing apples to oranges. Nobody should make the HOF based on comparsion to another player. If anything, at least find another 1B to compare him to.[/QUOTE]
What does position in the field have to do with numbers you produce at the plate? I didn’t post gold gloves or fielding %. If I did, I would agree with you. The only other 1st Baseman that would compare to Mattingly in the field would be Hernandez.
[QUOTE=N1NER;418871]
What’s the difference between Puckett getting in and Mattingly not. (Note: I think Puckett deserves to be in Cooperstown.)[/QUOTE]
I can think of two:
Here’s another:
Mattingly wore Converse instead of Nike. :ohmy:
I know I'm a little biased, but you have to be kidding me about Frank Thomas! For about a decade he was arguably the most dominant offensive player in the game. Look up his stats. The guy hit 500+ HRs and drove in over 1700 runs for crying out loud, all while batting over .300 for his career, wtf do you want??It amazes me that anyone could think otherwise. And he got all those numbers cleanly, he offered to take blood tests multiple times.
Does he get in as a first baseman or as a DH. He only played about 5 complete seasons at 1B. Don’t get me wrong, I do think he’s a great hitter. But if there was no DH he wouldn’t have the 500 HRs and 1700 rbi’s, etc.
First base is probably the most difficult position of all the positions to stand out with hitting #s. First base is loaded with great hitters. Here are some other first baseman in Thomas’ era. I’d say probably all of them were better fielders than Thomas, and they were not too shabby at the plate either.
Jon Olerud
Fred McGriff
Tito Martinez
Todd Helton
Andres Galaraga
Will Clark
Mark Grace
Carlos Delgado
Mark McGwire
John Kruk
Jeff Bagwell
Rafael Palmeiro
Jim Thome
Jason Giambi
[QUOTE=Normmm;418889]Does he get in as a first baseman or as a DH. [/QUOTE]
Since you mentioned DH. Does Edgar Martinez deserve to be a HOF’r?
18 seasons
.312 career batting average
.418 career on base %
.515 career slugging %
309 HRs
7 time all star
2 times led the AL in batting average
5 Silver Slugger awards
Dusty Baker: “He’s one of the best right-handed hitters ever seen.”
Since you mentioned DH. Does Edgar Martinez deserve to be a HOF'r?18 seasons
.312 career batting average
.418 career on base %
.515 career slugging %
309 HRs
7 time all star
2 times led the AL in batting average
5 Silver Slugger awardsDusty Baker: “He’s one of the best right-handed hitters ever seen.”
Well, that’s kind of my point. If Thomas gets in as a DH, I think it definitely opens the door for somebody like Edgar. If he gets in as a 1B then I think guys like McGriff, Clark, Palmeiro and Bagwell have to be considered.
SS, CF and C don’t have to put up ridiculous numbers to be Hall of Famers, their defense is more important than their batting #s in most cases.
Rafael Palmeiro = never. Caught lying about the juice. Even if everyone was doing it, he’s got the Scarlet Letter.
[QUOTE=NLP;418963]Rafael Palmeiro = never. Caught lying about the juice. Even if everyone was doing it, he’s got the Scarlet Letter.[/QUOTE]
If anyone that used steroids gets in, then Palmeiro gets in also. Just because he got “caught” and the other known and obvious users did not does not make Palmeiro any more guilty than the rest of the roid boys. The voters can’t be double hypocrites.
Only way that lying sack of **** ever gets in is 50 years from now thru the “old timers” entrance.
Rafael Palmeiro = never. Caught lying about the juice. Even if everyone was doing it, he's got the Scarlet Letter.
I don’t think he’s going to get in either. But I agree with X, it’s hypocritical. There’s hardily an eligible player over the past 20 seasons where there isn’t some suspicion over steroid use. There’s no doubt in my mind that Bonds and Clemens used, and I think they’re both locks to get in.
Only way that lying sack of **** ever gets in is 50 years from now thru the "old timers" entrance.
LOL. Which liar are you talking about, Bonds, McGwire, ARod, Clemens, Ramirez, Sosa or Palmeiro?
Does he get in as a first baseman or as a DH. He only played about 5 complete seasons at 1B. Don't get me wrong, I do think he's a great hitter. But if there was no DH he wouldn't have the 500 HRs and 1700 rbi's, etc.
First baseman. He played 11 seasons primarily at 1b. And yes, he would definitely still have 500+ HRs and 1700 rbi’s if he had stayed at 1b.
ron santo deserves to be in the hall of fame.
First baseman. He played 11 seasons primarily at 1b. And yes, he would definitely still have 500+ HRs and 1700 rbi's if he had stayed at 1b.
Not too sure how accurate this is, but this site shows him playing 1B primarily from 92-97, and switching to mostly DH in 98. Then they got Konerko in 99. It’ll be interesting to see how much they value the DH. I think he Thome are in similar positions.
[QUOTE=Normmm;419022]LOL. Which liar are you talking about, Bonds, McGwire, ARod, Clemens, Ramirez, Sosa or Palmeiro?[/QUOTE]
Was talking about Raffie…but obviously he’s got company.1 guy in the media who’s opinion I actually respect,Bob Costas,did a great analysis of a few of these guys careers and their chances for the HOF, his opinion is that Bonds and Clemens would get in based upon #'s that it’s believed that they were getting before “juicing”(tho obviously noone knows for sure when each started)…He made a great case that McGwire shouldn’t get in because of how dramatically his power #'s shot up with the juice,and that was really 99% of McGwires case for the Hall…He wasn’t a particularly good defensive player and surely wouldn’t get in on his batting ave. stats.