I remember seeing the facebook invite for this group… I really hate seeing stuff like this, especially within our University…
ethics people, ethics…
Simon O’Brien is certainly not to blame. I say thats a pretty good use of information technology and he should get a gold metal. I’m not debating if it is right or wrong to use this service but certainly a brilliant idea. In the real world this is what makes and breaks business. You have to find cheats and find ways to have better information then the next guy. As far as what I read he himself did not violate any rules… but only provided a platform for information exchange. If anything the university should realize we are in the 21st century aka the information age and change the way they do business. Perhaps paper exams are a little old fashion? Perhaps standardize test are out of fashion? My best professor while at Charlotte was Dr. Erevelles. He would tell you everything that would be on the test and tell you to write it down. But his test really made you think and explain what you learn. There was no right or wrong answers. If anything I think this shows the weakness of the institution and perhaps the need for change. I would have to say that students are out-smarting the professor… or just cheating themselves. Perhaps if they changed the institution to be a competition among other students rather then “The Book” (as it is in the real world) this issue wouldn’t even exist. If the arts and sciences has something the individual that may benefit him among his peers then perhaps there is motivation to learn these ideas. And those who fail among their peers obviously don’t have what it takes… there for get an “F”
Then the role of the professor would be more of an adviser rather then one who “professes”. Real learning among “MEN” happens from collaboration and individual thought. What your professor learned in his life may or may not be relevant to the here and now… But the professor is quite experienced and can offer guidance to the apprentice.
Use the law of nature to guide learning!
I say thats a pretty good use of information technology and he should get a gold metal. I'm not debating if it is right or wrong to use this service but certainly a brilliant idea. In the real world this is what makes and breaks business. You have to find cheats and find ways to have better information then the next guy.
You’re joking right?
maybe the should investigate the Frats too
haha
Are we sure it’s not Stonecoldken who’s running this site?
To be honest with you, I’m sure plenty of us have used former test from a class to study.
The only people who are going to truly benefit from this are people taking classes from professors who recycle tests. I’m of a mindset that knowing the questions before a test isn’t a bad thing. Most problems we encounter in the real world, we know the question before we’re asked to solve it. It is a very rare situation in a job where you will be asked a group of questions that cover a broad spectrum, and then given an hour to solve them all or get fired.
Since the idea of education is to prepare us for real jobs, and the real world, I don’t have a problem with kids knowing what they have to study before the test actually comes. I only had two classes in college where I imagine a previous exam would have given me the answers to every question.
[QUOTE=donkeyjaws;317754] maybe the should investigate the Frats too
haha[/QUOTE]
the frats are smuggling the tests out under their baby blue shirts
Part of this discussion is about the new uses of technology in education. Of course the vast majority of this is hugely positive, but technology can provide avenues to “cheat” also (and it remains to be seen if this is “cheating”)
In college I had to sign my name on the “honor code” whenever I turned in an exam or a paper. Still remember how important that was to me.
Some good points here about education and the sharing of ideas and knowing the questions ahead of time. I do not think it works for all classes/subjects, but my favorite thing to do as a teacher was to hand out the final exam the first day of class. I was backwards building, meaning we all then knew the end goals for the semester, now it was time to learn for those goals. This kept me on track and told the students that I was not playing games and trying to trick them with questions.
My feeling was that if my students worked very hard (and I did an excellent job teaching, which was always an if HAHA) then they should all get A’s. Anything else meant that my backwards building had gone awry and the students had not reached their goals, whether because of them or because of my teaching.
This backwards building method I was taught in grad school is something I still use as a coach each season. We already know our goals, we know the things that can get in the way, we know the final exam already, the question is can we together reach those goals.
[QUOTE=Charlotte Soccer Coach;317758]Part of this discussion is about the new uses of technology in education. Of course the vast majority of this is hugely positive, but technology can provide avenues to “cheat” also (and it remains to be seen if this is “cheating”)
In college I had to sign my name on the “honor code” whenever I turned in an exam or a paper. Still remember how important that was to me.
Some good points here about education and the sharing of ideas and knowing the questions ahead of time. I do not think it works for all classes/subjects, but my favorite thing to do as a teacher was to hand out the final exam the first day of class. I was backwards building, meaning we all then knew the end goals for the semester, now it was time to learn for those goals. This kept me on track and told the students that I was not playing games and trying to trick them with questions.
My feeling was that if my students worked very hard (and I did an excellent job teaching, which was always an if HAHA) then they should all get A’s. Anything else meant that my backwards building had gone awry and the students had not reached their goals, whether because of them or because of my teaching.
This backwards building method I was taught in grad school is something I still use as a coach each season. We already know our goals, we know the things that can get in the way, we know the final exam already, the question is can we together reach those goals.[/QUOTE]
That is the way education should be. A clear understanding of where you are going, and how you are going to get there. Students shouldn’t be in the dark about what they are learning, and there shouldn’t be any surprises on a final exam. The final exam should just be, do you know it or not. But, we have gotten away from trying to truly educate people, at all levels. School is now something that has been brought down to the common demoninator. There are people in all levels of education that shouldn’t be there. I know there are people at Charlotte that shouldn’t be pursuing a degree.
There is so much pressure on the school system to pass people, it is ridiculous. It is almost as if stupid has been removed from the public consciousness in the united states. I think Jefferson was right, school should be provided for everyone that has an aptitude and that aptitude should be what is developed.
to add to Coach and Powerbait’s discussion, we also must consider that many professors and departments grade under a bell curve, trying to standardize as much as possible. there is a real problem with “grade inflation” in this country within private, but especially public universities. departments don’t want to give out too many A’s. they would rather the middle 50% of the class fall within a D-B range, with a few F’s and a few A’s. i cannot attest to specific instances at our university as of now (though i am only a frosh and may have not had a class where this happens) but my girlfriend who is a chemistry major at chapel hill filled me in on how this is “policy” in that department. and though i cannot say for sure that this has happened to me, i would assume that some of my huge lecture classes this first year (psyc 1101, math 1100) were probably graded in this way.
so while i agree with both of you that there shouldnt be any “darkness” and students should know their goals going in, i fear that a system much like Coach’s where the majority of the students get A’s likely would not fly. I do not know when you taught, Coach, or at what levels, but your system sounds interesting. i’d like to learn more about it. i have never taken a class like that, so it sounds a lot different to me.
If a test has right answers, and everyone in the class gets them all right, they should all get As. If the idea of a class is to educate people on a subject, and the people in the class all get it right, then they all deserve to pass. I am not really a big fan of A, B, C, D, F, only because a system like this has a built in connotation. There is nothing wrong with being average. In fact, if classes were graded more fairly, we’d see a lot more Fs and a lot more C’s. I would rather see a fail/met expectations/exceed expectations system put into place.
I have seen a lot of people not get the work done and still pass. That is just crazy. Our school systems need to start holding children accountable. Schools at the ground level have become day cares. With both parents working, it takes an act of congress for an underperforming or disruptive student to get sent home. I don’t know how anyone can willingly send their children to most public schools anymore. I loved public school and was a big propenent of it (not from a tax standpoint, but from an experience stand point), but I just can’t see how most people could get a good education from public schools anymore.
I would rather see a fail/met expectations/exceed expectations system put into place.while i agree with some of your points, in that system you have to define "expectations." and how would you do that? would the expectations be the same for everyone? how would each student know their progress? would they have to take a standardized test to determine what their expectations should be?
its a flawed system in place now, but a pass/fail system has flaws as well.
The majority of my students definitely did NOT get A’s … but I always felt dissapointed when they did not achieve to that level.
I absolutely understand the pressures in a college atmosphere to avoid giving too many good grades. That makes the class/department seem too easy and therefore not of as high esteem. I can tell you that my father was personally told by the head of his department to stop giving so many good grades as a college prof. I see both sides of this issue as valid (grading on bell curve v. grading as actual points received) so hard for me to say either is wrong.
Funny bell curve story … my frosh year I got a 12 (out of 100) on my first Physics exam. It was a C+
Funny bell curve story ... my frosh year I got a 12 (out of 100) on my first Physics exam. It was a C+
NICE! :lol:
see this is the good side of the bell curve argument. the other is when you get what would normally be a low A, but are demoted to a B because the statistics need to work out correctly.
Funny bell curve story ... my frosh year I got a 12 (out of 100) on my first Physics exam. It was a C+i dont know if i should laugh out loud or be appalled. thats kind of ridiculous, imho. i prefer the total points system, like in my US Legal History Class. the whole class is out of 1000, exams are out of 100 points, quizes and case briefs are out of 50, class participation is out of 25. no ifs, ands, or buts.
I laughed out loud. Goes with the Chem exam I had that was in the 50s and was a B.
Needless to say I did not stay a Biochem major for long
[QUOTE=Savio;317750]You’re joking right?[/QUOTE]
ummm… No
Grades (A,B,C,D,F) are way too black in white in todays complex world. Not only that they don’t promote real understanding. What are grades used for? To measure a students knowledge and understanding of a particular subject… Or as a motivation tool for students to learn a subject? In the case of students sharing tests to cheat you can clearly see that students were more motivated to get “A good grade” rather then earn a true understanding and knowledge of the subject. As Powerbait said there are a lot of people in higher educational institution that have no business being there. If A student doesn’t have a clear desire to gain real knowledge they shouldn’t be there as they become detractors to others that do desire to learn. I don’t see using a curve as a bad thing as this is a way to classify students among their peers… however its hard to use a standard grading method to measure individuals. The result becomes that the students that get the higher grades are the ones that are best at taking tests or that are “good at school”. I believe the University should be a collaborative learning environment among students and professors in which their performance is based on the value that they bring to the classroom. Dr. Erevelles did this in the form of “Bonus Points” where if a student had an excellent thought or comment to add to the discussion they got 5 points added to their grade.
Grades are way too political. First of all they are only a reflection of a professors idea of what should be learned. While I agree this is of importance it also limits “Possibilities”. I remember taking my senior capstone marketing class with Dr. Campbell. He was discussing “proper dress and procedures for securing a job” He professed that we needed to invest in “Business Attire” meaning the classic shirt tie and dress slacks. During a class I told him that this is not true. That just because everyone in the past has conformed to this fascist idea that doesn’t mean you as the individual have to do so. Of course I caught a lot of laughs and dismissal for this comment. But the reality is that he was entirely wrong. One should dress in a way that markets them and projects who they are and what their core values are. Coming from a marketing professor you would think he would know this. I remember interviewing for the first job I got out of school. It was for a field marketing manager. I met with the regional sales rep at a coffee shop in the mall. He was out visiting his accounts where he sells shoes to and wanted to walk through some stores. The guy walks out in shorts, flopps, and a hawian shirt. The last year I worked there the guy had sold 25 million dollars worth of shoes and took home commissions of about 1.2 million. … and one of his top stores was the “oh so fabulous” Nordstrom. My next job (now paying near 6 digits) I got wearing jeans and a t-shirt.
I think that the institution has become very fascist. They have sold out to big corporations and “Groom” students to be exactly how these companies want them. To me thats what a community college is for. For those who have no desire to make a real difference in this world and to create new possibilities for mankind. They alternatively decide to learn a “Trade” or a set of standardized knowledge and processes that have been developed for and by companies. The University is suppose to be a “higher level” of learning. Its suppose to research ideas and possibilities. Its suppose to produce students who have a comprehensive understanding of life… both in the present and in the past. A University should develop ideas and technologies for all of humanity and not for large corporations.
Perhaps this is why there is opposition to a football team? Perhaps the big money in Raleigh wants to produce workers for their companies more then produce happy people. This is precisely why this the guy that cheats on his exam should get a gold metal. In Machiavelli’s “The Prince” he defines two: The “Hereditary Prince” and the “New Prince”.
From Wikipedia.com:
[Quote]All a hereditary prince needs to do is carefully maintain the institutions that the people are used to; a new prince has a much more difficult task since he must stabilize his newfound power and build a structure that will endure. This task requires the Prince to be publicly above reproach but privately may require him to do immoral things in order to achieve his goals. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niccol%C3%B2_Machiavelli[/Quote]
Have you ever heard the idea that the “B” and “C” students do the best in life? Why do you think that is? I graduated with around a 2.7 GPA in business/ marketing. I barely passed my Information Systems class with a D. Just over 3 years out of school I work as Director of Marketing and Business Intelligence making near 6 figures. I maintain our ERP system. Just recently implemented a CRM system. And now I am integrating our ERP, CRM, and Website(Which I developed in coldfusion, java, javascript, and MySql) on the back end while creating a data warehouse in ORACLE for data mining and mass customized marketing. So perhaps I learned more about Information Technology than a “D”. Perhaps I learned in school a little more then a 2.7 GPA. Oh and I got this job interviewing in jeans and a t-shirt 
I don’t know exactly what the solution is but I know that the institution is systematically flawed in this manner. It used to be that getting a college degree and getting good grades would get you a good job. But in todays highly comlex and competitive society it really comes down to what you can do. I could go to work for Boeing in my underwear if they were absolutely sure I could make them millions of dollars. And I think as this discussion has brought to a reality is that good grades don’t always equal ability and competence.
I thought of one more interesting point I’d like to make about morality which relates to the students cheating. This goes back to Machiavelli’s “Prince” and his philosophy of “necessary evils”. I was reading last night on Social and Demographic trends published from the PEW Research center. They do lots of studies on society and what and how people opinions change over time. They had this one article on morality which shows the results of their study about what people find to be right and wrong.
see http://pewsocialtrends.org/pubs/307/a-barometer-of-modern-morals
an exerp:
[Quote]Cheating on your taxes is almost as bad as cheating on your spouse.
Drinking excessively is worse than smoking marijuana.
Engaging in homosexual behavior and having an abortion are equally fraught.
Telling a lie to spare someone’s feelings is worse than gambling.
Sex between unmarried adults is more objectionable than overeating (but not by much).[/Quote]
Now do you think that the powers at will might have something to do with the fact that not paying your taxes is one of the worse things you can do? I mean who cares if you drink yourself to death or do drugs, or be a glutton… just as long as you pay your taxes your ok? This is what the “Hereditary Prince” does to maintain “The Institution”. This is why they teach ethics in college. I mean If you are going to learn right from wrong don’t you think your parents should have done that when you were a child?
I never cheated in college…well at least nothing like cheat notes, studying secret tests, etc. The rules of the university state that if you want to study here you cannot do these things. I didn’t want to get kicked out for something stupid like that. I did what I could to get grades so that i could stay but mostly I took away as much learning as I could.
Some of the hardest tests that I ever had were in a Psychology class with Dr. Maisto. He would give you a list of 10 essay questions a week before the exam. Before he walked into the class he would use a random number generator and pick 3, then walk in and write those numbers on the board. You had 90 minutes to answer those questions worth 25% each. There were also 25 multiple choice questions at 1% each that you didn’t know about in advance, but could answer if you had prepared thoroughly for the 10 essays. When you have almost 30 minutes to answer a question that you have known about for a week the level of detail expected is pretty high. These were killers.