those are some real generalizations. can you elaborate or substantiate? the bottleneck at South Blvd/485 is beyond mind boggling and should be "whined" about. It can take 45 minutes from the 77/485 bridge to the mall at 5pm. (keep your fingers crossed there is no wreck that day)
nowhere on 485 (southside) have additional lanes been added. It was repaved this week though. At least the leg by the airport is done right, 3 lanes.
Last year, there was a fight about whether the southern portion should be widened or if the northern portion should be finished. Legislators from the different sections proposed opposing bills on it. In the end, they compromised that construction on the northern portion would be delayed a year or 2 until 2012 and the southern portion would be widened starting in 2011.
I am not disagreeing that the southern portion at Pineville needs widened. I just think that the road should be finished before they start widening. Neither of them affect me at all, so I guess it doesn’t really matter to me. It just seems like the “poor, little old me” act by people in the southern part of the city gets old after a while. There are serious transportation issues in the north end of meck county, too…
[QUOTE=Noreaster;248568]The biggest problem with transportation systems is that too often the changes and fixes are REACTIVE instead of PROACTIVE. The light rail project is PROACTIVE. It is being built in anticipation of growth and the fact that in 15-20 years, it will be needed.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=MeanJoeGreen;248554]We have a saying; You can count on life, death, paying taxes and concrete cracking. I would like to split NC into independent western and eastern sections. Sure, that will never fly, but maybe splitting the DOT and the tax dollars spent would. Most states have their counties constructing many of the local roads. Here, we have city and county throwing good money after bad on a light rail system. What this city needs is a complete, widened beltway, I77 widened to exit 42, I85 widened to Kannapolis and about 4 or more freeways that act as spokes to connect I485, I77 and I85 to the other major Charlotte roads. All of that should cost less than the proposed lightrail system.[/QUOTE]
The thing is, we don’t have the money to do that. The majority of the money spent on light rail is state and federal money and the city of Charlotte wouldn’t have it if it weren’t building a light rail system. The amount of money Charlotte is putting into light rail woudln’t be enough to complete one of those projects. Building spokes on 485 will never happen because the area is too built up now to connect it to other major thoroughfares. Land values are so high and so many houses and businesses would have to be bought out that it would never happen. I77 and 85 definitely need to be widened, but 77 has limited room in which it can be widened. Widen it much more and the city will have to start buying out businesses and tearing them down and that brings many of its own problems. If it weren’t for the light rail system, the majority of that money wouldn’t be in the city’s possession and everyone would still be complaining about I-77 needing widening and 485 being finished. Light rail is not the reason those projects aren’t finished yet. Light rail has been terribly managed, but an effective mass transit system is necessary to accommodate a city the size Charlotte will be in 20 years. When you have 4 million people in the metro area (which is about what it will be in 2030 assuming trends continue), it doesn’t matter how many lanes you have because you’re going to have congestion everywhere. If people would stop moving 25 miles from where they work and lived near the city limits, we wouldn’t have to widen every road in the region 25 miles away from center city. Country roads are built to accommodate country traffic and when you suddenly start adding tens of thousands of people to roads that are designed to carry 1/4 as many cars as its carrying, congestion is going to happen. Unplanned growth and nearly unrestricted development have caused the traffic problems in Charlotte, not light rail.
What many fail to realize is that if you don’t meet air quality standards and public transit standards, your money for roads is cut. If we didn’t build light rail we likely would have had even less money for roads in the future than we do now.
[QUOTE=RWORKMAN09;248579]. If people would stop moving 25 miles from where they work and lived near the city limits, we wouldn’t have to widen every road in the region 25 miles away from center city. [/QUOTE]
no offense, but I am so tired of that myth. Every city in the US has burbs. I’ve told this story before…my grandparents grew up on Euclid Ave, which is in Dilworth. In the 30’s it was on the “outskirts of town” my grandpa said (in fact Myers Park was built also on the perimeter of town). So my point is that cities will always expand, Dilworth is now part of the uptown! Where-as 60 years ago Dilwort was equivalant to Waxhaw. Everyone wants 3000 sq ft and a Supertarget down the street for under $500k, you can’t get that near uptown. Its supply and demand. Of course Char-Mecks outrageous taxes and shiity schools don’t help either.
ironically regarding this thread…my great grandfater was the superintendent of the Charlotte trolley system…lol.
"If people would stop moving 25 miles from where they work and lived near the city limits, we wouldn’t have to widen every road in the region 25 miles away from center city. "
What you say about the politics and funding is true. The point is, the sum of all that the city WANTS to spend on the entire light rail system would be better spent on new roadways. However, I feel the above quotation reflects a larger city agenda to keep tax revenue in the city.
The study by UNC Charlotte is fine. Are there faults? Absolutely. All studies have flaws. The Locke Foundation studies have faults. The biases of Locke/Hartgen need to be thoroughly considered when assessing the veracity of the Hauser study. The focus on “process” rather than data could be telling. I consider the light rail project worthy of further public policy analysis given the potential costs. I would rather have a research organization tied to a university conduct such analysis than a clearly biased, anti-planning organization.
As many have pointed out, the anti-transit folks (beyond their pompous demeanors) are incredibly biased. Heaven forbid if the Transportation Studies Center reach different conclusions. I wonder who the former director of the Transportation Studies Center was? Regardless, both sides are disingenuous about the reality of congestion. Neither light rail nor wider lanes will fix congestion. It is a condition of modern urban centers. Boston, DC, Chicago, NYC, and others have great rail systems and the congestion is awful. Atlanta, LA, and San Diego have gargantuan freeway systems and congestion is awful.
Like many debates, this one boils down to philosophy. How much government spending and intervention are you willing to support? Who benefits (suburbanites vs. urbanites)? and power relationships.
"If people would stop moving 25 miles from where they work and lived near the city limits, we wouldn't have to widen every road in the region 25 miles away from center city. "
What you say about the politics and funding is true. The point is, the sum of all that the city WANTS to spend on the entire light rail system would be better spent on new roadways. However, I feel the above quotation reflects a larger city agenda to keep tax revenue in the city.
If the money being spent on light rail is no longer spent on light rail, it won’t be spent on roads either.
The quote comes down to basic urban planning principles. Lower density development increases the cost of infrastructure and service provision. Higher density development decreases the stress put on infrastructure.
It isn’t an agenda to keep tax revenue in the city. It is an agenda to decrease the cost of providing basic services for the citizens.
Residential development is a strain on local governments. It costs more to serve residential development than they bring in in tax dollars. Nonresidential development subsidizes residential land uses.
The study by UNC Charlotte is fine. Are there faults? Absolutely. All studies have flaws. The Locke Foundation studies have faults. The biases of Locke/Hartgen need to be thoroughly considered when assessing the veracity of the Hauser study. The focus on "process" rather than data could be telling. I consider the light rail project worthy of further public policy analysis given the potential costs. I would rather have a research organization tied to a university conduct such analysis than a clearly biased, anti-planning organization.
I think the problem comes from the way the study was dictated, I think that is what you are getting at in the word “process”, and not the possible flaws in the study.
There is a large paper trail between the chamber and the University. You also have Dubois all about this light rail thing. You have Hauser saying he did it independently after a city meeting, but the email dates say he was asked to do it days before that. You even have Ron Tober calling it something like “the study that was done for the Chamber”.
Again, I don’t think that anything will come out of this review of the study, does anyone really think we’ll call out ourselves?. I don’t even know if anything done was “that bad” but it doesn’t look good from a PR standpoint for a RESEARCH university.
If the money being spent on light rail is no longer spent on light rail, it won't be spent on roads either.
The quote comes down to basic urban planning principles. Lower density development increases the cost of infrastructure and service provision. Higher density development decreases the stress put on infrastructure.
It isn’t an agenda to keep tax revenue in the city. It is an agenda to decrease the cost of providing basic services for the citizens.
Residential development is a strain on local governments. It costs more to serve residential development than they bring in in tax dollars. Nonresidential development subsidizes residential land uses.
The South Corridor is funded 50% Feds, 25% state, and 25% local (1/2 cent sales tax) With cost overuns the local is a little more than 25%. Great post by Noreaster, residential development never pays for itself unless it is dense development in an area already serviced by roads, sewer, electric, schools, fire, police, etc. All of these things add up and the low property tax we have in this city compared with other cities across the country is not paying for these services. The city can only annex some much more property, the next option is to intensify development in the built-up environment.
The South Corridor is funded 50% Feds, 25% state, and 25% local (1/2 cent sales tax) With cost overuns the local is a little more than 25%. Great post by Noreaster, residential development never pays for itself unless it is dense development in an area already serviced by roads, sewer, electric, schools, fire, police, etc. All of these things add up and the low property tax we have in this city compared with other cities across the country is not paying for these services. The city can only annex some much more property, the next option is to intensify development in the built-up environment.
Is that the breakdown of what it is now, or what it cost a couple 100 million here and there ago? Cost over runs for the south line are at 140%, so i don’t see how it is “a little more than 25%” b/c i really don’t think the feds chipped in more than they agreed to.
I am glad I don’t live in the city of charlotte, I would feel like such a drain if i owned a house that wasn’t connected to my neighbors The city is really behind on money, what scumbags in their residential areas trying to live an american dream its their fault that we are in bad need of money. not $265 million dollar arenas voters didn’t want, couple million for Wachovia’s art centers, how many millions for the nascar hall of fame, $40 million for the trolley to raise awarness for light rail, Baseball stadium land swaps, the Westin Hotel, whitewater centers, the loss of a couple million on the scaleybark station, the extra $500K for the light show at the transit station.
Better get to annexing goat farms in west meck fast!
If Charlotte didn’t have an arena, a new cultural campus in the Wachovia Center, the NASCAR HOF, Light Rail, and baseball (btw no taxes will be used to repeat AGAIN), and the Whitewater Center people wouldn’t be moving to Charlotte in leaps and bounds. Why do you think along the Light Rail Line over $1 Billion in new invesment is taking place, because people hate light rail that takes them to the HOF, Arena, and museums and galleries. No, they are moving to South End and Uptown in droves because of the amenities. That is what makes thriving cities thrive. Again and again I here people bitch and complain over their tax dollars not at work, go to other cities in the Midwest and Northeast and then come back to Charlotte. We have one of the cleanest, financially stable cities in the country. Rant over.
The South Corridor is funded 50% Feds, 25% state, and 25% local (1/2 cent sales tax) With cost overuns the local is a little more than 25%. Great post by Noreaster, residential development never pays for itself unless it is dense development in an area already serviced by roads, sewer, electric, schools, fire, police, etc. All of these things add up and the low property tax we have in this city compared with other cities across the country is not paying for these services. The city can only annex some much more property, the next option is to intensify development in the built-up environment.
Sorry, that was a loaded question. 50% of a billion dollars is a lot of money that could be used on other pressing roadway needs. And believe me, if the government gets all the light rail lines and rarely used public transportation they want, it will be over a billion dollars easy. The fact has been proven over and over, that no amount of development pays for government services because government services are always spending as much as they can.
The only way that I could see myself supporting light rail is if my job depended on its implication.
I can agree to disagree when it comes to urban development vs suburban, roads vs transit, and other types of government expenditures. Our opinions come from years of learning in high school and college, political preference, where you grew up and how your family looks at these issues. What I do want to correct is the thinking that the money used for Light Rail (LRT) in Charlotte could be used for roads. That is just not the case. These dollars are earmarked specifically for public transportation. Just as the NASCAR HOF is paid for by hospitality taxes, not property taxes, state and federal monies for public transit are to be used for just that. Obviously it gets divied up at the highest level when the federal government figures out the budget. When it comes to the local level, the money will either be used here for LRT or somewhere else in the state. LRT and HOF construction money is not taking away from school money, road money, or police protection. I believe all ideologies have gotten some part of their thinking right, unfortunately we all think we have it all right, myself included.
No, the light rail money comes from a few places. One is federal TRANSIT dollars. If they didn’t come to Charlotte, they would go to another city’s transit system (like Portland). Another is state TRANSIT dollars. If they didn’t come here, they would go to another city (like Raleigh, which is also thinking about light rail). The remainder comes from a local TRANSIT tax. If the transit tax is repealed, the light rail is shuttered, and Charlotte has to REPAY all of the money we got from the federal government, including the cost overruns. If that’s not bad enough, we will likely lose our road funding. Are you really that pissed off about paying $39 a year per household?
As for the remark on Charlotte’s cleanliness…go to Buffalo and tell me that Charlotte is dirty. Go to Newark, Atlanta, Baltimore, Cleveland, Cincinnati, etc., etc. and tell me that Charlotte is dirty. Hell, go to Detroit. Go to any of these cities, and if you come back and tell me that Charlotte is dirtier than these places, I will put on a glo-vest and pick up the litter strewn about downtown.
thats just not so. Charlotte is one of the most littered towns in America. There's enough mattresses and couches on the highways to start a shelter.
True… They are contracting a private company shortly for a few million $ to take over the task of cleaning Charlotte area highways and interstates. Looking at the condition of the trashy roads, I’d say it’s probably a good idea.
Charlotte is DEFINITELY cleaner than Atlanta though. Of course, that’s like saying Oscar the Grouch is cleaner than Pig-pen…
everyone discussing light rail only looks at bottom line construction cost. what doesn’t enter the debate is the economic impact of such an investment and the cost of serving various patterns of development. southend property values have skyrocketed. the new tax dollars generated by the higher property property values should be added to the net budgetary impact of the ligth rail project. in addition, the land use pattern created is much higher density than the concrete jungles of the burbs where acres in parking lots far exceeds land under buildings. far more efficient to serve with public services than low denisty sprawl. how much and how long does it take to collect the trash at a high rise condo with 100 condos versus picking up the trash at a 100 home 1/4 acre lot subdivision (1 truck for 5 - 10 minutes at the high rise and 1 truck - 100 minutes for the subdivision). how much road and rail does the city have to maintain for the high rise condo versus the 100 home subdivision (400 - 600 feet of road frontage for the high rise versus 60 - 80 feet of road frontage per home in the subdivision). Within a 1/2 to 1 mile of the high rise condo I can work, eat, play, buy clothes and get groceries, I don’t even need a car. the 100 home subdivision might have everything I need within 3 to 5 miles. a car is required because, even if I wanted to walk or ride a bike the streets are designed for cars only.
look at the land use pattern created at an interstate interchange. Lets take 1-77 and Harris Blvd. or Sam Furr Road or I-85 and Harris Blvd. or Concord Mills Blvd. All are pure crap. auto dependent sprawl burbs that are clogged with traffic. Then take the land use pattern in southend. more walkable with a clear mix of uses. look at total assessed tax value per acre and southend wins hands down. it is not even close.
[QUOTE=minerniner;248637]Then take the land use pattern in southend. more walkable with a clear mix of uses. look at total assessed tax value per acre and southend wins hands down. it is not even close.[/QUOTE]
We did an economic impact study of LRT in South End at my office and found the land values of Historic South End rose over 140% since 2000, the year that CATS agreed on the final ROW alignment for LRT. Also no new roads needed to be built because the grid is still intact from 50-75 years ago.
