one more thing. i make the economic arguement as that is the same reason this state builds roads. if road building was about reducing congestion this state would only build roads in the 20 to 30 urban counties in the state. it is not, so we build roads based on an equity formula. each ncdot distirct gets its fair share based on poplation and other factors. you get your money no matter the level of congestion that is present.
[QUOTE=Noreaster;248634]No, the light rail money comes from a few places. One is federal TRANSIT dollars. If they didn’t come to Charlotte, they would go to another city’s transit system (like Portland). Another is state TRANSIT dollars. If they didn’t come here, they would go to another city (like Raleigh, which is also thinking about light rail). The remainder comes from a local TRANSIT tax. If the transit tax is repealed, the light rail is shuttered, and Charlotte has to REPAY all of the money we got from the federal government, including the cost overruns. If that’s not bad enough, we will likely lose our road funding. Are you really that pissed off about paying $39 a year per household?
As for the remark on Charlotte’s cleanliness…go to Buffalo and tell me that Charlotte is dirty. Go to Newark, Atlanta, Baltimore, Cleveland, Cincinnati, etc., etc. and tell me that Charlotte is dirty. Hell, go to Detroit. Go to any of these cities, and if you come back and tell me that Charlotte is dirtier than these places, I will put on a glo-vest and pick up the litter strewn about downtown.[/QUOTE]
I travel the southeast US every week. Orlando, Raleigh, Tampa, and Nashville are far cleaner.
wow, we are cleaner than Detroit…golf clap.
Everyone I’ve ever talked to that wasn’t from the west coast has always commented on how clean they thought the city was.
If Charlotte didn't have an arena, a new cultural campus in the Wachovia Center, the NASCAR HOF, Light Rail, and baseball (btw no taxes will be used to repeat AGAIN), and the Whitewater Center people wouldn't be moving to Charlotte in leaps and bounds. Why do you think along the Light Rail Line over $1 Billion in new invesment is taking place, because people hate light rail that takes them to the HOF, Arena, and museums and galleries. No, they are moving to South End and Uptown in droves because of the amenities. That is what makes thriving cities thrive. Again and again I here people bitch and complain over their tax dollars not at work, go to other cities in the Midwest and Northeast and then come back to Charlotte. We have one of the cleanest, financially stable cities in the country. Rant over.
The whitewater center is losing money, the arena isn’t getting filled and has no naming rights. I highly doubt people are moving here for whitewater centers and an NBA team, okay maybe bob johnson but we practically paid him. You didn’t have a comeback to my mention of the overpriced transit center, the trolley, and the westin hotel. You remark of 1 billion in development, but the city can’t sale scaleybark, how many subsidies did the city have to give out to get 1 billion in development?
Part of the reason you have development here and people moving here is the high taxes in the northeast, the lack of jobs in many places (ohio), and the high cost of living in some places (florida). Union county is one of the fastest growing counties in the US, they don’t have all the overpriced bull****, they just have affordable living, good schools, and low crime.
We have all these nice things, but other things that people want good schools, good roads, and a safe community, are WAY behind.
[QUOTE=RWORKMAN09;248644]Everyone I’ve ever talked to that wasn’t from the west coast has always commented on how clean they thought the city was.[/QUOTE]
everyone huh? killing me.
I travel the southeast US every week. Orlando, Raleigh, Tampa, and Nashville are far cleaner.wow, we are cleaner than Detroit…golf clap.
I’ve only been to Tampa once, and it seemed pretty rough when it came to cleanliness. Don’t let the palm tree boulevards fool you. I also have a friend who visits family there every year atleast twice and I’ve only heard one good thing about Tampa… it’s on the coast.
Maybe you’ve seen better areas.
And not to sound like a hippy… and I’m not singling out Metro, so keep your cool… if you have such a problem with all the **** clogging the streets in the city, they have groups you can join to go out and clean it.
[QUOTE=CharSFNiners;248651]I’ve only been to Tampa once, and it seemed pretty rough when it came to cleanliness. Don’t let the palm tree boulevards fool you. I also have a friend who visits family there every year atleast twice and I’ve only heard one good thing about Tampa… it’s on the coast.
Maybe you’ve seen better areas.
And not to sound like a hippy… and I’m not singling out Metro, so keep your cool… if you have such a problem with all the **** clogging the streets in the city, they have groups you can join to go out and clean it.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you…I actually pick up litter here locally. I hate it…the litter that is.
I travel the southeast US every week. Orlando, Raleigh, Tampa, and Nashville are far cleaner.wow, we are cleaner than Detroit…golf clap.
slow clap
Remember back when we were younguns and the trolley used to cruise by Reids? I sure did like those chicken salad sandwhiches and that millon dollar snail rail. Those were the good old days. Back when a buck was a buck
Remember back when we were younguns and the trolley used to cruise by Reids? I sure did like those chicken salad sandwhiches and that millon dollar snail rail. Those were the good old days. Back when a buck was a buck
Whatever happened to the trolley cars? Are they in some museum downtown now or did we trade one in on a light rail caboose. Bank prolly foreclosed on it.
[QUOTE=ninerID;248647]The whitewater center is losing money, the arena isn’t getting filled and has no naming rights. I highly doubt people are moving here for whitewater centers and an NBA team, okay maybe bob johnson but we practically paid him. You didn’t have a comeback to my mention of the overpriced transit center, the trolley, and the westin hotel. You remark of 1 billion in development, but the city can’t sale scaleybark, how many subsidies did the city have to give out to get 1 billion in development?
Part of the reason you have development here and people moving here is the high taxes in the northeast, the lack of jobs in many places (ohio), and the high cost of living in some places (florida). Union county is one of the fastest growing counties in the US, they don’t have all the overpriced bull****, they just have affordable living, good schools, and low crime.
We have all these nice things, but other things that people want good schools, good roads, and a safe community, are WAY behind.[/QUOTE]
How much in subsidies went to concord mills mall. concord and the state built the roads around it and widened the interchange at 1-85. the reason I-85 got widened from I-485 into cabarrus county was the mills mall development. concord and cabarrus county gave away all the tax revenue (sales and property tax) for seven years. the jobs produced are minimum wage. the traffic is a nightmare. lets not talk about incentives and subsidies. they are all over. the pay back on concord mills mall subsidies is 20 - 25 years. Light rail started its pay back as soon as it was invisioned and a route put on a map. that kicked off a real estate bonanza that has seen the property values and tax revenue skyrocket. those land transactions recieved no offset of their tax dollars. no road project that was simply done for them. utilities were already in place. they had a transit line run near them.
As for union county. god help your tax bill if you live there. the county did a school facility study and found they have over three quarters of a billion dollars in school improvements needed to handle the sprawl they have allowed. do you know what a 750 million dollar bond will do to the union county tax rate? try a 20 - 25 cent increase in your tax rate to pay that off in 20-25 years. that is a 30 - 40 percent jump in your tax bill. that doesn’t even touch roads, utilities, parks and other improvements needed in union county. nor does it consider increases in the level of service needed to serve residents with social services, paying to operate those new schools, libraries, etc. Union tried to copy the cabarrus county model and adopted an Adequate Public Facilities ordinance so they could charge new homes for a portion of the needed infrastructure. then you had an election and the new developer friendly board dropped the ordinance like a hot potato. You can have union county and its future tax rate. good luck.
how much has it cost the state and local towns to improve infrastructure to accommodate the mass influx of people? All the little roads that have had to be widened and repaved on a much more regular basis than before have surely cost the taxpayers tens or hundreds of millions. Sprawl has made 74 so congested that they’re discussing making a 74 bypass of Monroe that will connect into 485. That will cost hundreds of millions if not a billion +!
Metro, you said earlier that all cities have suburbs, which is true, but all cities do not have suburbs like those in Charlotte. Much of the south is set up in a similar fashion, but that’s just because land was plentiful, the automobile was well established when southern cities grew, and developers were allowed to rape the land to make as much profit as possible. Suburbs in older cities are not the same as suburbs today. Suburbs long ago were built in a grid like manner and had connections to many roads instead of just dumping hundreds of families onto one tiny road that was designed to accommodate 1/10th of the traffic it now handles. Older suburbs often have stores and restaurants that one can walk to rather than making it absolutely necessary to have a car to get what you need. You mentioned that when your grandfather was growing up, Dilworth was considered being out in the sticks, but it had connecting streets, public transit service, and walkable destinations. Those kinds of suburbs are what need to be built rather than unlimited numbers of cul-de sac neighborhoods that make car travel necessary. When growth is allowed to happen without proper planning, you end up with what we have now. It will only get worse if you don’t restrict sprawl and require stricter regulation on the type of developments approved. I have no problems with suburbs, I have a problem with the way the suburbs have been developed.
OT, but there has been so much interesting info on this thread. I always like to read different points of view on topics that basically are my profession.
It is going to take 10-20 years before people truly realize how important the decision to go with the light rail was.
The key is being proactive, imagine if NYC never built a subway system or had a comprehensive regional commuter rail system?
One thing I would find interesting and maybe some on here could post some links is the proposed plans around some of the light rail stations. I’m currently reading a book called The New Transit Town: Best Practices in Transit Oriented Development. Early in the book the focus is on that much of what gets built around train stations is Transit Related Development, but not Transit Oriented Development. It would be interesting to see if Charlotte’s plans fall under TOD or TRD.
[QUOTE=MeanJoeGreen;248655]Whatever happened to the trolley cars? Are they in some museum downtown now or did we trade one in on a light rail caboose. Bank prolly foreclosed on it.[/QUOTE]
you can find out all you want about the trolleys at http://www.charlottetrolley.org/
here is a photo I found of my great grandpa AG Collie (white shirt middle) and my grandpa’s brother (kid beside him) at the old barn
Yes Union is screwed, but no I don’t live there. I still live in the great state of Mecklenburg, just not in Charlotte.
Good comp from Jeff A Taylor in 2004
[I]Item - Dateline: South End.[/I] After several months of midday service, the Charlotte trolley on Monday begins its long-awaited rush-hour service. All of [URL=http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/transportation/9955141.htm][U][COLOR=#0000ff]five[/COLOR][/U][/URL] (5) paying customers show up to pay their dollar and take their ride into town.
[I]Item - Dateline: I-485 Corridor.[/I] After several years of delays and repeated changes in the completion date, on Tuesday the Charlotte Beltway is [URL=http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/transportation/9963455.htm][U][COLOR=#0000ff]finally connected[/COLOR][/U][/URL] to Interstate 85. Hundreds of cars line up to use the seven-mile stretch, which provides a vital link to Charlotte-Douglas International Airport.
after spending $40 million on the uptown trolley, up from the original estimate of $19 million, the city will have to [URL=http://charlotte.bizjournals.com/charlotte/stories/2004/12/20/story5.html?page=2][U][COLOR=#800080]mothball the trolley[/COLOR][/U][/URL]
Once service is suspended, copious uptown signage for the trolley will have to countered by an ad campaign telling people that, no, in fact, there is no trolley service right now, try back in a few months. And once the light rail line is up and running in 2006 or 2007, the trolley will again be relegated to off-peak and weekend runs.
Mecklenburg County taxpayers were compelled to spend $1.4 million buying the barn property back in 2003. The transit folks have since then spent $700,000 on planning for renovations designed to cost $4.5 million. Now, however, they’d like to delay work on the trolley barn so that the $4.5 million can be used for the light-rail project. Doing so risks having the county sell the barn property out from under the transit system, which would supposedly squander the [B][COLOR=red]$700,000[/COLOR][/B] in [COLOR=red]planning expenditures.
[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Dubois, go get us some football and you can have your free spending light rails[/COLOR]
you can find out all you want about the trolleys at [URL=http://www.charlottetrolley.org/]http://www.charlottetrolley.org/[/URL]here is a photo I found of my great grandpa AG Collie (white shirt middle) and my grandpa’s brother (kid beside him) at the old barn
It is an interesting photo and history.
ruh-roh
[URL=http://www.charlotte.com/109/story/200014.html]http://www.charlotte.com/109/story/200014.html[/URL]
[B]UNCC study tied [/B][B]to transit poll[/B]
[B]E-mails show university discussed keeping that relationship secret[/B]
[QUOTE]subsequent e-mails show that the university was debating how to present the study to the public.
In a March 22 e-mail to Dubois, Rash wrote that [B]Bob Morgan (of the chamber) “asked my opinion about who should ask for this research to be done. We quickly agreed that it should not be CATS or the Chamber.”
In reality, Morgan had asked for the study.
Dubois replied: “Why not just have Edd announce it has an initiative of the Institute `in the public interest.’ We have an obligation to serve as a forum for the debate of important public issues, yada, yada, yada.”[/B]
Said Rash on Monday: “The Chamber had only asked us a bunch of questions – not for a study per say.”[/QUOTE]
are you kidding me Dubois?
the study was clearly initiated by the Chamber, but then they were ready to lie on who in fact initiated the study. Poor judgement by Dubois all the way around.