[i]Originally posted by Iron9er[/i]@Dec 5 2004, 05:32 PM [b] Sorry, LF...my computer was F'd and I didnt mean to do that. Nothing was directed towards you. [/b]No problem.
And yes, that was about the last play I would have thought of calling there. There was absolutley no reason to run a play for a 3.
[i]Originally posted by MKNiner[/i]@Dec 5 2004, 05:03 PM [b] Wow, hate it when that happens.<_<Apologies PI, I was wrong. And you are also correct, that was a stupid play to run down by 1.
I need to pick a new team to follow, this team makes me emotionally unstable. :wacko: [/b]
One question⌠Each team gets 1 time out per overtime, right? If you donât use your timeout in that overtime, it doesnât carry over to the next overtime (giving you 2)? In either the 1st or 2nd overtimes we didnât use our timeout (I think), but the scoreboard still only showed 1 for us at the start of the 3rd OT (which we used with 7.5 or so seconds left).
It sure would have been nice to call another timeout before running that 4.4 second play. Maybe Bobby could have come up with something better.
I knew what inbounds play PI was talking about and I wasnât even thereâweâve run that since Jobey was a freshman.
If you watch Niner basketball and have a brain, you should know the inbounds play heâs talking about.
[i]Originally posted by barker14[/i]@Dec 5 2004, 05:57 PM [b] I knew what inbounds play PI was talking about and I wasn't even there--we've run that since Jobey was a freshman.If you watch Niner basketball and have a brain, you should know the inbounds play heâs talking about. [/b]
[i]Originally posted by 49erpi+Dec 5 2004, 03:16 PM-->
[b]QUOTE[/b] (49erpi @ Dec 5 2004, 03:16 PM)
From what I remember about 5 (No thatâs not why itâs called 5 PI, itâs called 5 because itâs not 1, 2, 3 or 4):
First look, Post screen (Plav for Iti I think) try to clear someone for a dunk (Iti)
Second look to Plavich who flares off Withers in the corner
Thrid look to Withers who screens for Plavich then rolls to the top of the key
Fourth look to Mitchell down court.
Ok hereâs my problem with what I saw:
Lets replay the whole thing mentally
Iti rolls off his screen, Eddie checks and he is covered. Good
Plav flares off the Withers screen. Freeze. Something went wrong here. Was the screen good. If so then the pass goes to Brendan if the post doesnât cover him up. In this case the post did not fly at Brendan so either the ball shouldâve went right to Brendan or the screen was bad and the play shouldâve proceeded to Curt.
To me this is the problem with pointing fingers:
Did Eddie hesitate to make the pass because he didnât trust the system?
Did Eddie just make the wrong read/bad decision?
Did Curt set a good screen?
Was Brendan to tired to flare off quickly enough?
Was their a hold/foul that was overlooked by the ref on the inbound?
Did Eddie get a clean look or was his view blocked?
So many things can go wrong. Especially when you consider that Orlando knows what Bobby runs and so he probably drilled his boys about Coachâs sets. Itâs unfair to blame one play as the meltdown of this game.
[i]Originally posted by 49erFan1+Dec 5 2004, 08:19 PM-->
[b]QUOTE[/b] (49erFan1 @ Dec 5 2004, 08:19 PM)
[i]Originally posted by 49erFan1[/i]@Dec 5 2004, 08:32 PM [b] From what I remember about 5 (No that's not why it's called 5 PI, it's called 5 because it's not 1, 2, 3 or 4):First look, Post screen (Plav for Iti I think) try to clear someone for a dunk (Iti)
Second look to Plavich who flares off Withers in the corner
Thrid look to Withers who screens for Plavich then rolls to the top of the key
Fourth look to Mitchell down court.
Ok hereâs my problem with what I saw:
Lets replay the whole thing mentally
Iti rolls off his screen, Eddie checks and he is covered. Good
Plav flares off the Withers screen. Freeze. Something went wrong here. Was the screen good. If so then the pass goes to Brendan if the post doesnât cover him up. In this case the post did not fly at Brendan so either the ball shouldâve went right to Brendan or the screen was bad and the play shouldâve proceeded to Curt.
To me this is the problem with pointing fingers:
Did Eddie hesitate to make the pass because he didnât trust the system?
Did Eddie just make the wrong read/bad decision?
Did Curt set a good screen?
Was Brendan to tired to flare off quickly enough?
Was their a hold/foul that was overlooked by the ref on the inbound?
Did Eddie get a clean look or was his view blocked?So many things can go wrong. Especially when you consider that Orlando knows what Bobby runs and so he probably drilled his boys about Coachâs sets. Itâs unfair to blame one play as the meltdown of this game. [/b]
That was a nice breakdown you had there 49erFan1. Good stuff. Thanks for taking the time to explain your view.
[i]Originally posted by 49erFan1[/i]@Dec 5 2004, 08:32 PM [b] From what I remember about 5 (No that's not why it's called 5 PI, it's called 5 because it's not 1, 2, 3 or 4):First look, Post screen (Plav for Iti I think) try to clear someone for a dunk (Iti)
Second look to Plavich who flares off Withers in the corner
Thrid look to Withers who screens for Plavich then rolls to the top of the key
Fourth look to Mitchell down court.
Ok hereâs my problem with what I saw:
Lets replay the whole thing mentally
Iti rolls off his screen, Eddie checks and he is covered. Good
Plav flares off the Withers screen. Freeze. Something went wrong here. Was the screen good. If so then the pass goes to Brendan if the post doesnât cover him up. In this case the post did not fly at Brendan so either the ball shouldâve went right to Brendan or the screen was bad and the play shouldâve proceeded to Curt.
To me this is the problem with pointing fingers:
Did Eddie hesitate to make the pass because he didnât trust the system?
Did Eddie just make the wrong read/bad decision?
Did Curt set a good screen?
Was Brendan to tired to flare off quickly enough?
Was their a hold/foul that was overlooked by the ref on the inbound?
Did Eddie get a clean look or was his view blocked?So many things can go wrong. Especially when you consider that Orlando knows what Bobby runs and so he probably drilled his boys about Coachâs sets. Itâs unfair to blame one play as the meltdown of this game. [/b]
JK.
This would make much more sense, especially down 1.
In any case thanks for the break down. If the first option is a post player and not Plav on the wing then I can accept the play call alot more. Is the play always a shot in that instance or does it first call for Plav to look for a pass?
[b]One question... Each team gets 1 time out per overtime, right? If you don't use your timeout in that overtime, it doesn't carry over to the next overtime (giving you 2)? In either the 1st or 2nd overtimes we didn't use our timeout (I think), but the scoreboard still only showed 1 for us at the start of the 3rd OT (which we used with 7.5 or so seconds left).It sure would have been nice to call another timeout before running that 4.4 second play. Maybe Bobby could have come up with something better.[/b]
Timeouts in overtime do not carry over. You get 1 full per overtime period, unless you call it immediately after another timeout; then it becomes a thirty.
[b]d.) Curt is a man child down low, however he also has a nice outside game. I like the fact that we isolate Curt at the top of the key. It works well when he's got a power defender on him. However it doesn't work when he's got a 3 like Kennedy Winston on him. We need to run more sets where Curt rolls off a screen similar to what Plavich does, but instead of running to the tree point line, setting position on the low block and getting a good post entry pass.[/b]
I totally agree. BUT, I really doubt our guardsâ ability to throw a good post entry pass. I can clearly remember a possession late in regulation where Curt was on the right block and had his man on his left hip. Brendan had the ball on the right wing, and was looking right at Curt. Yes, Brendan had the taller Shelton guarding him, but a right-handed hook bounce pass wouldâve gotten the ball right into Curt in a position to score. Seriously, I could have thrown it. Brendan held the ball and held the ball, and then threw it back out to the top. Oh for the days of Sean T. Colson!
BTW, 49erFan1, those may be the 2 most basketball intelligent posts Iâve seen on our series of message boards all the way back to the GoCarolinas days. BRAVO!
[i]Originally posted by MKNiner+Dec 5 2004, 10:05 PM-->
[b]QUOTE[/b] (MKNiner @ Dec 5 2004, 10:05 PM)
[i]Originally posted by 49erpi[/i]@Dec 5 2004, 11:45 PM [b] Um, before you give Fan1 the final say in everything lets realize that just about every baseline inbounds play gives a look underneath for a layup or dunk. This particular play is run for Plavich and Demon before him and Jobey before him. It always ends up in the corner for a 3 point attempt. The safety valve on it is dumping it up to to the point. Of course every play has some options but this was run to get Plavich the last shot. [/b]Not giving him the final say, just asking the question.
To me if the post is the first option thatâs what the play is being run for. But if every play has that option in it I can see how the second option is the one that is looked to.
In any case I think many would agree, it wasnât the shot we were were hoping the team would get.
[i]Originally posted by 49erFan1[/i]@Dec 5 2004, 08:19 PM [b]c.) Eddie is a wonderful defender, however his offensive game will never be a one on one player. He should be cutting to the hoop or posting up smaller defenders on the block. He does both of these well because he can finish in traffic. He should not be handling the ball 20 foot out.
[/b]
He handles the ball from 20 feet out because he can create his shot better than any other player on the team.
By the way, he was our best 3-pt shooter last year % wise.
That paragraph baffles me.
[i]Originally posted by 49erFan1[/i]@Dec 5 2004, 08:32 PM [b] From what I remember about 5 (No that's not why it's called 5 PI, it's called 5 because it's not 1, 2, 3 or 4):First look, Post screen (Plav for Iti I think) try to clear someone for a dunk (Iti)
Second look to Plavich who flares off Withers in the corner
Thrid look to Withers who screens for Plavich then rolls to the top of the key
Fourth look to Mitchell down court.
Ok hereâs my problem with what I saw:
Lets replay the whole thing mentally
Iti rolls off his screen, Eddie checks and he is covered. Good
Plav flares off the Withers screen. Freeze. Something went wrong here. Was the screen good. If so then the pass goes to Brendan if the post doesnât cover him up. In this case the post did not fly at Brendan so either the ball shouldâve went right to Brendan or the screen was bad and the play shouldâve proceeded to Curt.
To me this is the problem with pointing fingers:
Did Eddie hesitate to make the pass because he didnât trust the system?
Did Eddie just make the wrong read/bad decision?
Did Curt set a good screen?
Was Brendan to tired to flare off quickly enough?
Was their a hold/foul that was overlooked by the ref on the inbound?
Did Eddie get a clean look or was his view blocked?So many things can go wrong. Especially when you consider that Orlando knows what Bobby runs and so he probably drilled his boys about Coachâs sets. Itâs unfair to blame one play as the meltdown of this game. [/b]
And, you are absloutely correct in that Orlando was aware of what Charlotte was trying to do as he is well aware of Charlotteâs sets. If you were watching after each timeout at the end, Orlando actually came farther out onto the court and watched the Charlotte huddle and then would go into the Alabama huddle. Also, and most important, if you watched closely, the options were pretty much covered with a very good defense by Alabama. Plavick did exactly what was designed and unfortunately it didnât work. If it had, Plavick is a warrior (now converted to a goat) and Lutz is a mastermind (now regulated to be fired). I am in no way trying to defend either Plavich or Lutz but the situation is not as clear cut as some on here want us to believe.
Powerbait, maybe your right. However Iâm just not as sold that Eddie is at his strongest when heâs doing spin moves 20 feet away from the basket. The Bama game to me showed that when Eddie is getting to the basket heâs at his best because he finishes so well in traffic and can hit free throws. Furthermore he and Curt are both phenomenal offensive rebounders, so to keep him on the perimeter really hurts us in that categories. I think heâs a phenomenal slasher and we need to use him as such. However I still feel his ball handling is suspect and will get exploited if we keep allowing him to try to go one on one from 20 foot out.
I disagree, Plavich/Lutz would be exactly the same to me after the game. I would have been happy the ball went in, sad that we couldnât do something better than a 3-ball from a guy with tired legs.
Besides, this argument would hold more weight if Bobby hadnât run the same play as time ran down in the OTs and at the end of regulation. He wants Plav to make the shot, because he sees Plav as clutch. Plav was tired, and his shot wasnât dropping, he shouldnât have been in the game. I trust a fresh Leemire over a tired Plav any day of the week.
But, it doesnât matter, you canât critize Bobby after a loss, because itâs not his fault the shots didnât drop. And you canât critize Bobby after a win, because obviously he did enough to get the win.
[i]Originally posted by 49erFan1[/i]@Dec 6 2004, 09:16 AM [b] Powerbait, maybe your right. However I'm just not as sold that Eddie is at his strongest when he's doing spin moves 20 feet away from the basket. The Bama game to me showed that when Eddie is getting to the basket he's at his best because he finishes so well in traffic and can hit free throws. Furthermore he and Curt are both phenomenal offensive rebounders, so to keep him on the perimeter really hurts us in that categories. I think he's a phenomenal slasher and we need to use him as such. However I still feel his ball handling is suspect and will get exploited if we keep allowing him to try to go one on one from 20 foot out. [/b]First off, I want to tip my hat to you 49erFan1. These are some of the best posts I've ever read on our boards. I wish we had more such discussion.
I just wanted to comment on Eddie getting the ball 15-20â out. I agree with you. Eddie is a great finisher but not a great ballhandler. He possibly slipped a little, but definitely lost the handle on his dribble out there trying to lull his defender to sleep so he could explode past him. Rather than that being an isolated incident, heâs had the same problem several times in his years here.
The rest of what you said is dead on, and very well expressed. I really enjoyed reading it. Thanks.
Iâm jumping in late here but 100% Lutzâs fault that we lost??? Come on, last I checked it wasnât Lutz that missed 15 free throws. And he gets Tâd up early for defending his players? Heâs doing what he has to do, it was a weak technical, that ref sucked big time anyway. If you are going to critize Lutz for getting a technical then you should critize Withes for hanging on the rim (even though that was a bad call too). I donât think you can blame this all on the coach. I would have liked to have seen him substitute more in the overtimes to get some fresh legs in, but he didnât expect there to be 3 OTâs.
The fact of the matter is close games are won and lost at the free throw line and we missed our opportunities to win this game. If we plan on making a run in the tournament then we have got to make free throws, period.