Judy Rose, heart of the problem?

49ers Basketball Forum šŸ€
41

[QUOTE=metro;232521]some invalid points hereā€¦there are plenty of former and current athletic department employees Iā€™ve heard say plenty of negative about her mgmt style.

her ā€œfriendsā€ are not the topic of discussion here. But since you bring it up, NOBODY has ever questioned how good of a person she is. She is a good person. But she is not a fit AD at this juncture.

and comparing her to Fla is ludicrous.[/QUOTE]

Iā€™m not comparing her to Florida or Jeremy Foley. I am simply trying to note that Jeremy Foley, who would likely be considered the top AD in the country, in terms of his hires/results, has his detractors ā€“ like Judy. You donā€™t like her, fine. I am sure some people have left that have an ax to grind, but do you expect everyone who leaves and/or gets fired to be glowing. People have different opinions about how to get to the same end results, and her results arenā€™t as bad as you make them out to be, as noted in my first post. I do know that John Tart, post ā€œresigningā€ his job, absolutely loved her and still raves about her, even though he probably didnā€™t agree with her decision.

42

[QUOTE=TheProvider;232550]Iā€™m not comparing her to Florida or Jeremy Foley. I am simply trying to note that Jeremy Foley, who would likely be considered the top AD in the country, in terms of his hires/results, has his detractors ā€“ like Judy. You donā€™t like her, fine. I am sure some people have left that have an ax to grind, but do you expect everyone who leaves and/or gets fired to be glowing. People have different opinions about how to get to the same end results, and her results arenā€™t as bad as you make them out to be, as noted in my first post. I do know that John Tart, post ā€œresigningā€ his job, absolutely loved her and still raves about her, even though he probably didnā€™t agree with her decision.[/QUOTE]

what do you think about here going on WCNC 6 months ago and called the CFI website ā€œfantasyā€? It told alot.

how do you feel about USF and UNCC being mirror instituions for 25 years athletically, and watching them pull the rabbit out of the hat while we are left dangling in conference realignment? (I will give Woodward some blame too)

what about the lack of cash our program has lacked the last 15 years? A true mover and shaker would of tapped Charlotte, the alum, and corporations far more than she has (though I have to concede she did a great job on the baseball stadium funding) but it does not excuse the other 15 years. The financial growth and gains in this city since 1990 are ENORMOUS, yet we didnā€™t parlay much of it.

you can go to any other mid major institution and find the same successes, facilities, etc. We donā€™t really stand out in any way as you and others imply. For the record, Judy was a serviceable AD for a decade, but its time for someone to elevate us. We need someone who can energize the fanbase, not go on TV and insult them. We need someone who can play a round of golf at Augusta with the heavy hitters and walk away with a committment. And most importantly, we need somebody who stokes more of our 75,000 alumni to become involved with sports with small funds, $250 per year. Thats no easy task, but it needs to be done MUCH better.

43

[QUOTE=metro;232559]what do you think about here going on WCNC 6 months ago and called the CFI website ā€œfantasyā€? It told alot.

how do you feel about USF and UNCC being mirror instituions for 25 years athletically, and watching them pull the rabbit out of the hat while we are left dangling in conference realignment? (I will give Woodward some blame too)

what about the lack of cash our program has lacked the last 15 years? A true mover and shaker would of tapped Charlotte, the alum, and corporations far more than she has (though I have to concede she did a great job on the baseball stadium funding) but it does not excuse the other 15 years. The financial growth and gains in this city since 1990 are ENORMOUS, yet we didnā€™t parlay much of it.

you can go to any other mid major institution and find the same successes, facilities, etc. We donā€™t really stand out in any way as you and others imply. For the record, Judy was a serviceable AD for a decade, but its time for someone to elevate us. We need someone who can energize the fanbase, not go on TV and insult them. We need someone who can play a round of golf at Augusta with the heavy hitters and walk away with a committment. And most importantly, we need somebody who stokes more of our 75,000 alumni to become involved with sports with small funds, $250 per year. Thats no easy task, but it needs to be done MUCH better.[/QUOTE]

I disagree that you can find the same successes, facilities, etc at other ā€œmid majorā€ schools, but we can agree to disagree. Where you do find them, you can trace their funding to state dollars (Winthrop, UNCG, etc) in many cases, a luxury UNC Charlotte doesnā€™t have. Metro, you are PASSIONATE, and I appreciate that, but I believe your root issue, beyond any perceived slight 6 months ago about fantasy dollars, is an underemphasis on the baseball program when you were here and probably up until now. That is being corrected. The new seats are going in today!

44

I agree wtih metro on this one. Judy is doing everything that is required by the AD position, but there are things that could be done a lot better. She has been around for a long time. I think it is time for some new blood in thereā€¦ someone that will get the apathetic portion of our fanbase excited and raise mroe money. If we do end up starting up a football program soon, the idea of Judy making decisions scares the hell out of me. I donā€™t feel real good about her hiring new mens and womens bball coaches either, but we donā€™t have time to find a new AD now before we hire coaches.

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[QUOTE=TheProvider;232560]I disagree that you can find the same successes, facilities, etc at other ā€œmid majorā€ schools, but we can agree to disagree. Where you do find them, you can trace their funding to state dollars (Winthrop, UNCG, etc) in many cases, a luxury UNC Charlotte doesnā€™t have. Metro, you are PASSIONATE, and I appreciate that, but I believe your root issue, beyond any perceived slight 6 months ago about fantasy dollars, is an underemphasis on the baseball program when you were here and probably up until now. That is being corrected. The new seats are going in today![/QUOTE]

my biggest problem is not baseball related, though the way it was ignored forever thorns me for sure, I can admit that.

what IS my biggest problem is the embarrassment I feel now when I go to a dinner party and explain to the group why we donā€™t have football and explain the A10, etc. I used to be so proud in the Metro and CUSA days w/ who we stood toe-toe with. Just look where we are today compared to a decade ago. Its a disgrace. We are no better off conference wise than we were in the 80ā€™s in the Sun Belt (old version with USF, UAB, VCU, etc)

46

Judy is a great AD to work for. You can have mediocre performance and she is cool with that. Also if you marry someone in the department, you have an automatic lifetime job with your spouse.

47

metro brings up a great point about ā€œ1990ā€ This aint your parents Charlotte, NC. This aint your parents, Concord, Harrisburg, University area, I85 corridor anymore either. The entire area has grown. Our school has grown. Our alumni base has grown. The amount of people living around charlotte has grown. the weekend/suitcase image is fading. Everything is getting better, yet our athletics department has dropped.

Our donators are women, b/c that is Judyā€™s base. I am not being sexist, i just think you have to find that VERY odd. I think its just time for new blood, new ideas, new strategies. This town has changed, and the university has become one giant reaction, our athletics department has become inaction.

48

This area is growing at a very impressive rate and will be much larger in population in the next 5-10 years.

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[QUOTE=Threemire09;232588]This area is growing at a very impressive rate and will be much larger in population in the next 5-10 years.[/QUOTE]

Charlotte is expecting an increase in population equal to the City of Pittsburgh in the next 20 years.
In 20 years Charlotte is expected to be bigger than the current size of Atlanta. This does not take into account the out lying areas. For example in 20 years Mooresville is expected to be close to the 4th largest city in the state because of so much developable land included in its town limits.

We need to tap into that because most of these people will be coming from somewhere else and could give a ā€œrats *ssā€ about Chapel Hill or NC State.

50

[QUOTE=ninerID;232586] The entire area has grown. Our school has grown. Our alumni base has grown. The amount of people living around charlotte has grown. the weekend/suitcase image is fading. Everything is getting better, yet our athletics department has dropped.[/QUOTE]

This perception bothers me more than ANYTHING ELSE associated with the school. I donā€™t have the facts to validate it, but I do think there is some (maybe a lot more than I want to admit) truth to these comments.

This perception (or reality) is a bigger issue than any thing else with the athletic dept. There are some successes, but still not enough given the growth within the rest of the school and the Charlotte area, itself.

The blame is not totally on Judy and her staff. But I have doubts as to how hard theyā€™ve tried to ā€œstep out of the boxā€ and make things happen.

51

I agree there has been some real progress, but probably not being able to see the rise of college football in the late 90ā€™s is really what we are suffering from. Just like you study in business school on strategy and seeing drastic market changes.

For football I think the benchmark at Charlotte was the ACC during that time and the state of NC, and that was a mistake, ACC football was struggling, but Southern Football (SEC etcā€¦), Urban City college football and CUSA football were thriving and under going huge growth. The ACC was able to catch up fast and react (it helped that Ga Tech, Clemson understood it and forced some change) and expand to bring in football schools and try to capture some of that urban and southern football growth.

Again, we missed it and did not see it, even though we are in a major urban area in the South, we should of added football, we had the wrong benchmark. This happens to companies and industries all the time.

52

Metro, I agree on some points about your argument and I think baseball did have awful facilities that rivaled NAIA status, but you do have a sweet one now, but I know itā€™s a little late coming. However, I do think we have very good mid-major facilities that border major. Also, we canā€™t compare our facilities with a major program that has football, thatā€™s like comparing apples and oranges.
But just compare our facilities to other mid-major programs in our own state like UNCW, UNCG, Davidson, etc. I wouldnā€™t compare App St because they have football, but the only thing I know is better is the weight room.
I also think the main reason USF got to the Big East was because they are in the state of Florida where football is king, and where the Big East wanted to tap into. I think it is for NO OTHER reason.

Provider, I agree with most of the things you have said, but letā€™s be honest John Tart would not say anything bad about anyone, so i donā€™t know how valid your point about him not saying anything bad about Judy is :wink:

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[QUOTE=fotee9er;232651]Metro, I agree on some points about your argument and I think baseball did have awful facilities that rivaled NAIA status, but you do have a sweet one now, but I know itā€™s a little late coming. However, I do think we have very good mid-major facilities that border major. Also, we canā€™t compare our facilities with a major program that has football, thatā€™s like comparing apples and oranges.
But just compare our facilities to other mid-major programs in our own state like UNCW, UNCG, Davidson, etc. I wouldnā€™t compare App St because they have football, but the only thing I know is better is the weight room.
I also think the main reason USF got to the Big East was because they are in the state of Florida where football is king, and where the Big East wanted to tap into. I think it is for NO OTHER reason.

Provider, I agree with most of the things you have said, but letā€™s be honest John Tart would not say anything bad about anyone, so i donā€™t know how valid your point about him not saying anything bad about Judy is ;)[/QUOTE]

Good enough point on Tart. I know Metro and I have gone back and forth some here, but here is the way I see it. Metro is an opinion shaper on this board. 90% of the people here have not spent any considerable time around Judy. Metro hasnā€™t in many years, and based on the feeling that she ā€œdidnā€™t come to baseball gamesā€ during his tenure, I have no idea how much he was around her then. Most of the people he tosses out as former employees that have a negative impression of her management style havenā€™t been there in 7-8+ years either. And who is to say they were right or wrong on her. Like bees to honey, people who donā€™t know her, think she is some type of incompetent AD because people on here, who really donā€™t know her either, bash her. Those 15 ā€œlostā€ years might have been spent cultivating people like Ike Belk, Mariam Hayes, Dale Halton, Gene Johnson, Tom Phillips, etc into giving sizeable gifts for our now, considerable facilities. Once again, Metro was one of the best players to ever don the uniform. His number is retired, and that gives him a forum to speak ā€“ from his opinion. For those that will shape their opinions from his opinion, that is your right, but I would encourage you to actually ask the movers and shakers in Charlotte their opinion of Judy. I think you will be surprised.

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[QUOTE=TheProvider;232660] but I would encourage you to actually ask the movers and shakers in Charlotte their opinion of Judy. I think you will be surprised.[/QUOTE]

are they alumni?
are you an alum?
andā€¦ if those movers and shakers really cared as much as you say, the corporate wealth of Charlotte would have cradled us by now, and thats clearly not happening.

you say you know me, but Iā€™ve got no freakin clue who you are (well I can narrow it down to maybe 3). My point is I want to see alumni steer this program. This program has been steered by non alum for too long. Albeit it was needed in the 70-80ā€™s because there were no alum old enough then. But I see a power struggle now between those holding on to the past, and those who are old enough, rich enough, and wise enough to have imput to this athletic program. No offense to Mullins, Halton, Hayes, Belk, or Philips- they are all outstanding people and we NEED them, but are they Niners? It scares the hell out of me that there are hardly any alumni from the chancelor, AD, asst ADs , large donors, etc.

As Iā€™ve said, I think Judy was servicable (not horrible) for a majority of her tenure, but its time for a new outlook. I still believe Judy is afraid to hire young aggressive personnel from BCS type schools to have high level jobs because she does not want to hear how bigger schools do it. She wants subservient types surronding her.

55

[QUOTE=metro;232667]are they alumni?
are you an alum?
andā€¦ if those movers and shakers really cared as much as you say, the corporate wealth of Charlotte would have cradled us by now, and thats clearly not happening.

you say you know me, but Iā€™ve got no freakin clue who you are (well I can narrow it down to maybe 3). My point is I want to see alumni steer this program. This program has been steered by non alum for too long. Albeit it was needed in the 70-80ā€™s because there were no alum old enough then. But I see a power struggle now between those holding on to the past, and those who are old enough, rich enough, and wise enough to have imput to this athletic program. No offense to Mullins, Halton, Hayes, Belk, or Philips- they are all outstanding people and we NEED them, but are they Niners? It scares the hell out of me that there are hardly any alumni from the chancelor, AD, asst ADs , large donors, etc.

As Iā€™ve said, I think Judy was servicable (not horrible) for a majority of her tenure, but its time for a new outlook. I still believe Judy is afraid to hire young aggressive personnel from BCS type schools to have high level jobs because she does not want to hear how bigger schools do it. She wants subservient types surronding her.[/QUOTE]

My comment ā€œI know youā€ was in general as in ā€œI know what your slant isā€. To my knowledge I have never met you, but I do know who you are as you have revealed it in any number of ways during baseball discussions. I consider all of the above Niners, because they bought in to us. Is Coach K a Blue Devil? Didnā€™t go to school there. Donā€™t you consider Danny Devos a Niner? I do. Charlotte will embrace us when we give them a reason to. When we win in menā€™s basketball, people show up. When we donā€™t, we are an afterthought. And I donā€™t understand what you really want. You want alumni to steer the program, but to hire BCS types to high level jobs. Arenā€™t those mutually exclusive? I think there are two actual alums on the admin staff, so its not as if they are non existent.

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[QUOTE=TheProvider;232724]I might be wrong, but where did I say I know you? To my knowledge I have never met you, but I do know who you are as you have revealed it in any number of ways during baseball discussions. I consider all of the above Niners, because they bought in to us. Is Coach K a Blue Devil? Didnā€™t go to school there. Donā€™t you consider Danny Devos a Niner? I do. Charlotte will embrace us when we give them a reason to. When we win in menā€™s basketball, people show up. When we donā€™t, we are an afterthought. And I donā€™t understand what you really want. You want alumni to steer the program, but to hire BCS types to high level jobs. Arenā€™t those mutually exclusive? I think there are two actual alums on the admin staff, so its not as if they are non existent.[/QUOTE]

I think Metro is trying to say that the Atheletic Department needs a facelift. Most of the people at key jobs have been around for sometime and have become comfortable in their ways. I agree, we need some very intense and aggressive talent in the department to bring a new perspective to how we want this program to look over the next 2, 5, 10 years.

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[QUOTE=TheShowDawg;232600]
most of these people will be coming from somewhere else and could give a ā€œrats *ssā€ about Chapel Hill or NC State.
[/QUOTE]
Trueā€¦ Until they start reading the local newspaper.

ā€¦

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[QUOTE=Over40NINER;232786]Trueā€¦ Until they start reading the local newspaper.

ā€¦[/QUOTE]

It may freak the newcomers out since all of the ā€œlocalā€ school mentioned are over an hour away from [FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=DarkGreen][B][I]CHARLOTTE[/I][/B][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]. They may unsubscribe with the"paper" and start drinking bottled water.:shades:

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[quote=ā€œNugget, post:28, topic:13631ā€][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]There is a lot of talk here about how much everyone in the Athletic Department dislikes Judy Rose. I am having trouble reconciling that with the fact that we typically keep coaches for a long time and her staff is mostly long-time employees. Maybe you have inside knowledge or were scholarship athletes here and have connections that I do not. All I can do is look at what is visible and wonder.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I know that most of our coaches enjoy better facilities today than they did a decade ago. Most of these coaches have more scholarships to offer today than they did a decade ago. Many of them are having good success with their programs.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Our womenā€™s basketball coach is leaving, but I do not think it is because she has problems with Judy Rose. She might tell you that Judy promoting her to head coach two years ago is what positioned her to get the top job at her alma mater, an SEC school and arguably the best school in college sports right now. She might also mention that her predecessor, Katie Meier, was able to go to an ACC school, Miami, on the strength of what she did here.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Our menā€™s program may be facing big changes, and I will be sad to see Coach Lutz go if he does leave, but it would be hard to say that our program has been anything but successful over his nine years. Sure, we have faltered lately, and maybe that calls for a change, but what exactly do you think is the ADā€™s fault here? The tone of this board is to get rid of the coach, and it seems that his contract has not been renewed based on the teamā€™s performance. Is that not what you are calling for? Coach Lutz may not be happy with his situation here right now, but I bet he understands why he is in it. Does this not mean that you agree with Judy Rose?[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I have seen comments about Melvin Watkins. True, Melvin did not get immediate consideration for the Head Coach position after Jeff Mullins and that had to sting. While he did a good job in his two years here as Head Coach, his six years at Texas A&M and their subsequent success make me wonder if our AD wasnā€™t onto something. I do know when Coach Wat lost his job at A&M he called Judy Rose to see if she could keep an eye out for him. Perhaps they made up.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]When Bobby Kummer lost his job at A&M he came back here, and he certainly knew Judy Rose. When Rob Moxley found that he did not like it at Maryland he came back here, and again, he knew Judy Rose.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]We are in the A-10 because it is the best place we could land without football. I suppose you can choose to believe that we do not have football because of Bonnie Coneā€™s mythical grandson, Chancellor Woodward did not like football, or Judy Rose only wants womenā€™s sports, but the truth is it is all about money. Charlotte does not have much.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]The 49er Club is the fundraising organization responsible for bringing in the bucks and they do roll up to the ADā€™s office, so it is fair to say that Judy Rose owns the money problem. I believe that there are less than 2000 members of the 49er Club, so if you take $3 million per year as a minimum that we need to do any kind of a football program that means that each 49er Club member needs to donate an extra $1500 each year. I do not think that I can do that. If your suggestion is that the Athletic Department should just go get the money from Wachovia, BofA, and Lowes I ask you why would they join us in a big way when we can only rally 2000 people to join our booster club? We have 70,000 living alumni. Where are they?[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Judy Rose may not be the AD that we need, but I do not think that I am seeing any well thought out arguments as to why. Show me the light.[/FONT][/COLOR][/quote]
Come again? Put the pipe down. 140,000 now

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[quote=ā€œ49erWhit, post:56, topic:13631ā€][QUOTE=TheProvider;232724]I might be wrong, but where did I say I know you? To my knowledge I have never met you, but I do know who you are as you have revealed it in any number of ways during baseball discussions. I consider all of the above Niners, because they bought in to us. Is Coach K a Blue Devil? Didnā€™t go to school there. Donā€™t you consider Danny Devos a Niner? I do. Charlotte will embrace us when we give them a reason to. When we win in menā€™s basketball, people show up. When we donā€™t, we are an afterthought. And I donā€™t understand what you really want. You want alumni to steer the program, but to hire BCS types to high level jobs. Arenā€™t those mutually exclusive? I think there are two actual alums on the admin staff, so its not as if they are non existent.[/QUOTE]

I think Metro is trying to say that the Atheletic Department needs a facelift. Most of the people at key jobs have been around for sometime and have become comfortable in their ways. I agree, we need some very intense and aggressive talent in the department to bring a new perspective to how we want this program to look over the next 2, 5, 10 years.[/quote]
Good call Whit