I’ll kick it off.
What did you think?
It has an insane disparity between critics and audiences on Rotten Tomatoes:
Gonna share my thoughts in a long post. Interested in reading yours first.
That scene wear Darth Vader’s ghost dated Rey in college was crazy. :))
Something something something dark side
Just a quick off the wall post about initial reactions. I took my 9 year old son so I tend to lean towards was it fun and interesting for him also.
When I left the theater I thought it was too long, the beginning was good, then after the initial Luke and Rey encounter it got really slow for about 30 minutes, I think they could have cut it down 30 minutes and it would have been fine.
The last hour or so was excellent though starting when they left that gambling city to the end was typical star wars. It left you thinking with the Rey and Ren dynamic on what was going on in the background and what they have in store for the third.
So that’s what I thought about it when I first left. Then I started reading reviews…
Reading some reviews they made some good points that a few of the scenes you were thinking WTF, this doesn’t add up. The Yoda encounter, the way Luke went in to “talk” to Ren and it blew up on him. (Seriously when has it showed in any star wars that Luke Skywalker would just go kill someone because he thinks they COULD turn dark) did seem kind of out there.
The thing with the tall lady and Po was kinda weird also.
So pretty much if you take it for what it’s worth a exciting star wars movie with action it was ok, if you dig deep it was kind of lacking. I think I need to go see it again by myself though. Might do that next week.
I thought this was an interesting read.
Part I
OK So before I dive into the movie. I was 5, 8 and 11 for the first trilogy - literally in the perfect age to get hooked into the Lucas machine. I also was a religion and philosophy major. I wrote my senior thesis on Star Wars. I have read many of the books. I consider myself pretty well versed in the Star Wars mythos and lore.
Let’s look at TFA first. JJ rebooted the franchise and wisely tapped into just about every SW trope possible. The franchise was on shaky ground and he wisely planted it firmly. The response was a fun film and a box office Juggernaut. The response from casual fans? I love it! Response from SW diehards? It’s too much of a rehash, Han died a crappy death, etc
So TLJ answers that. We have a hero go out on a high note, just not the one we expected. We have a SW movie that absolutely puts the franchise on a different path. Where TFA pulled from previous movies, this one charts a new path. I say this just to remind many what they felt about a “Star Wars” movie that they were given.
IMO People are always searching for the feelings they had with the original trilogy and no matter what happens and what they are given they complain well it isn’t this or that. Well of course it isn’t and if it was you would complain that it was. This sets the stage for what we got.
First I didn’t like all of it, but overall I thought it was good.
Some of the comic elements I felt were forced in or not necessary. Poe talking to Hux - loved it. Luke tossing the saber - didn’t like it. I liked the direction they took with Luke, but I don’t like the approach they took. A disillusioned Luke makes total sense. He would have learned about all the Jedi’s failures and run away after doubting himself and Ben. I get that. Would the Luke we knew ever been tempted to strike down Ben? I think so. Remember how close he was to turning in the first place. I can even see in some of his actions emulation of the quirkiness that we saw in Yoda in his swamp. What I didn’t like is Luke basically bad mouthing Obi Wan and an unwillingness to talk straight with Rey about what he had learned. That seem counter to who Luke was.
Snuffing out Snoke so early was a surprise and it didn’t make sense until Luke was also removed from the board. What we have now is a dark user and a light user on a rocky foundation without leaders to guide them - unbound by the past. I like that direction. It will be interesting to see what JJ does. IMO he should send Kylo to where Snoke came from - and let Rey continue to learn from Luke and Yoda. Give us our time jump and we will see a new type of Jedi in Rey and a new type of Sith in Kylo. I did not really have an issue with Yoda. I liked Rey taking the texts. All of that worked. Luke projecting himself was cool too and I was perfectly fine with that. There are many force powers we haven’t seen in the movies. I am totally ok with exploring these in the movies. With that said I really wasnt a fan of Leia in space. I felt similar to Luke, I liked what the motivation was, just not the execution.
Rey being the child of no one - I dont buy this. Kylo isn’t the most reliable narrator and we know from previous movies “from a certain point of view” can be applied. I think we might find that one of her parents were nobody, something like that. If Rian was doing the next one maybe, but with JJ coming back I expect we come back to her parents and it’s more than what Kylo said. With that said I am not sure that means shes connected to anyone special. I think the theme is the Force can be strong with anyone and Rey is the embodiment of that.
One thing that really irked me was the chase scene. If the cruisers were faster they should have been able to pull away. Not to mention the First Order had a full wing of tie fighters at their disposal, could have taken care of the transport and been done. The Hodo arc felt a little forced. Why wouldn’t she just tell Poe what was happening? I know they had to build him as the new leader of the resistance, seem like we could have found a better way to execute that.
The casino planet was fine, I didn’t mind that arc. It did feel like the entire movie dragged a bit though.
[size=1em]Part II[/size]
[font=verdana][size=1em]My initial reaction to it all though was well crap. Kylo can’t turn back, he is toast, he had his chance. I still think that. What bothered me was that this is the Skywalker saga and are we are going to end with a Skywalker being the bad guy nonredeemable? After watching it a second time though I like what it is setting up. Luke said HE couldn’t turn Kylo and when Leia said she knows her son is gone, Luke said well no one is ever really gone, so that window is still there. I don’t like the idea of him coming back though. He killed his d[/size][/font][size=1em][font=verdana]ad and his master - he should be past redemption.[/font][/size]
[font=verdana][size=1em]The Skywalker legacy is one that broke the system. The force is strong with everyone and the key is balance. I think that is what we began to see in Rey. The best way to fight the dark is not to fight it, but to accept it as a part of you. Luke was shocked she went right to the dark and didn’t fight it, but thats the lesson. Accept it as a part of you and manage it vs. denying it.Most know The Force is based on Taoism with western perceptions of good vs evil layered on top of it. This is stripping away the good vs. evil and saying we all have good and bad, we just have to balance that. The last scene I think is an important one. The force user kid inspired by Luke. The Skywalker legacy - everyone can have the force, no one can claim ownership and to seek balance. [/size][/font]
[font=verdana][size=1em]It wasn’t my favorite one, but it was good. It answered many complaints about TFA, charted a new course and pushes the franchise into a new direction. It bring forth all kinds of arcs that go from here and I like that. Funny though to hear the same people complain that TFA was too star warsy now complain it isn’t star warsy enough. Also think it’s funny the loudest voices that were anti JJ are probably now thrilled Rian isn’t doing IX like they had originally hoped. [/size][/font]
[font=verdana][size=1em]More than anything though it just a movie. A fun movie that resonated with me as a child and I will never be able to replicate the emotions and love I had for that story and character, therefore I seek to simply enjoy the story that is being told. This wasn’t attack of the clones, it was a solid movie that I enjoyed. [/size][/font]
I loved it. My favorite Star Wars movies are Empire and Rogue One, but this is definitely better than any of the prequels, and I liked it better than the force awakens. I loved the way they explored the force. I felt like that was a great way to explain things to a new audience that may not have seen, or cared about the old movies. I loved the scene with Yoda. Yoda is that old person that doesn’t care what they say anymore, and is at peace with letting go. It was action packed. I’d say more happened in this movie than any Star Wars movie to date. I love the way they Handled Luke. In a weird way, his character developed way more than I expected him to. He is set up to be a major player in all future films now, or take a few films off. I love that Rey is not part of a special lineage.
I think this film really gives a context to the prequels that makes them make more sense. Luke’s unhappiness with the Jedi Order is because of how complacent they became, and how many bad things were allowed to happen at the peak of their power. I hadn’t thought about that before, but after some reading, I can really see and appreciate this perspective. That’s the real genius of this movie. I had wondered if they weren’t going to try to use these new films to redeem the prequels, and I feel like a major attempt was made here.
My gripes:
- The casino scene was terrible and a waste of time
- The story line of this trilogy barely moved (but I do think the characters all developed significantly)
- I love comedy, but there was a bit too much for me. The opening scene didn’t feel like star wars to me. I found myself surprisingly enjoying the rest of the movie, but I’d rather just enjoy it, and not be surprised that I enjoy it.
- I can’t decide if I love or hate the final scene with Luke or not. On the one hand, I get it, it allowed him to have peace. On the other, they made him a force ghost so as not to die, but then literally killed him off in 3 seconds after that happened. With that said, I can appreciate the message. Loved the two suns again, we really got to see Luke at Peace, but also a new beginning.
- We all know Carrie Fisher’s fate, and you had the perfect opportunity to give her peace, and you balked. What are you gonna do now?
I am REALLY excited to see the next one. I love that he set us up with questions of Rey’s lineage, and of Snoke for two years, and those things ended up being entirely insignificant.
So, if I wrote everything that I thought about this movie, I’d bore myself, and every one of you…
I’ll try to stick mainly to the bigger issues. [edit - hah - my abridged version is still 3 freaking posts long! And I still didn’t get to everything. No apologies!]
First, and foremost, I despise the lazy, safe, yet extremist approach that Rian Johnson took with this movie. Let me be perfectly clear - I have liked his movies. Brick was a very fresh and unique movie - it was a classic Film Noir / Hard Boiled detective movie set in a high school, with high school aged kids spouting off fast paced, classic dialogue above their ages. It’s an anachronistic pretense that should not have worked, but it did. Looper and Brothers Bloom were a tad less risky and innovative, but also well executed. Rian knows how to make a concept work. But his take here… and I don’t know at what level Kathleen Kennedy or any of the other Disney brass were involved… anyway, his take here was either 1) completely cynical; 2) extremely lazy and contrary to many reviews, unimaginative; or 3) both. The problem with The Force Awakens was that it played things way too safe with all of the classic tropes. It wasn’t just death stars, and x wings, and the force, but specifically it setup the classic archetypes with rey’s savior-with-mysterious-past, and big baddy Snoke, who didn’t have to be an actual clone of the Emperor since he functionally was one anyway, right down to his sith apprentice and giant ass hologram presence… Everyone (me included) complained that TFA played things way too safe to the point of being predictable and boring.
So what does Rian do? He goes to the other extreme, gleefully telling his fanboi audience to f*** itself when Luke throws the lightsaber over his shoulder, and then he continues on, with vigor, unabated through the rest of the film with a level of zealotry that borders on religious. Instead of subtlety and carefully picking his opportunities to subvert or twist the classic tropes, he takes the lazy approach of ham-fistedly doing it with every single opportunity, and with such glee that it is downright offensive and a slap in the face to every 40 something who grew up loving Star Wars because it was, structurally, a classic hero story with its own very memorable veneer of cool and lovable polish. Everything that was “holy” about Star Wars got a giant f*** you. Rey? f*** being anyone at all or having any backstory. Same with Snoke. BTW f*** you too JJ for creating these characters that Rian hated. See also Phasma, who did f***ing nothing after tons of hype of how she would play an important role in VIII. The jedi order is s*** and so much toilet paper in history. I could go on, but if you saw the movie and grew up on the classic trilogy, you know what I mean. There are no heroes, Rey is a nobody, Poe is a wreckless, out of control asshole, Finn is chickenshit idiot who hatched a stupid plan that didn’t work, and even his potential hero moment would have been pointless…
And let me also say that the master arc for the classic characters in this new trilogy is a snuff film. Han, reduced pitifully to his former role and lost all glory, is nearly alone, rejected by his son, and dies awfully at his hand. A sad, pathetic end to a heroic, redeemed scoundrel. Luke is the next up, and remember, this was “his film” – he is left, like his mentor Obi Wan, living out a bitter, disillusioned, lonely, powerless existence in exile, both physically, and from the force. He never even leaves “Achoo” (just naming that planet like a sneeze is the second stupidest naming decision after Snoke – though that’s on JJ). His astral projection power may seem like some as a cool new force power, but the truth is, he never really phsycially reconnected with anyone, or took up his laser sword and played the classic role of hero. He pulled off a glorified parlor trick, and a vain one at that (lost some weight, and the grey beard), and then peaced out, again, alone, and without ever fulfilling his lifes ambition to restore the jedi order. I have no doubt Leia would have met a similarly depressing fate if Carrie had lived to film IX. This unceremonious disposal of our favorite heroes from the original trilogy unsurprisingly left a foul taste, if not outright anger, in the mouths of all the older fans. I can say that I don’t mind them dying and getting out of the way of the next generation’s story, but could they not have all died with a little more dignity, and a little more fulfilled, and amongst and with friends? Han and Luke never even saw each other for fucks sake, and Luke only saw Leia via ForceSkype. Chewbacca was a punch line/clown in this movie.
So nothing is special, there is no backstory to any of our new heroes and aside from Rey they suck as people anyway (and make bad decisions), and all of our old favorites have been tossed out like a pair of worn out smelly shoes. Yeah, WHEEE! Who’s excited?
Then you get into the other humongously bad decisions Rian made that will have lasting effects on the entire universe, including:
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Hyperspace tracking? f*** off. This absolutely breaks the entire Star Wars universe. No seriously. Think about this for a while. Retroactively apply it to every previous Star Wars movie and every one of them breaks. This is god mode for the bad guys and the Star Wars property will never recover from it. Forget everything else I have typed and realize that this is actually the worst thing Rian Johnson did to Star Wars.
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Weaponizing lightspeed? I will admit that looked cool as s***, but again, he just broke every bit of SW space combat. Star Wars space battles were originally modeled on WWII aerial raids and bombing runs, but this negates all of that by potentially turning every space fighter into an ISIS terrorist with a backpack IED. Just fing horrible. You Rogue One fans… hey f your hammerhead corvette. It should have just jumped to lightspeed and speared that Star Destroyer. Game over man. Game over.
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Leia in spaaaaaaaaaaaace. I was gonna just classify this as a stupid moment that didn’t work, but I think it actually does damage beyond that scene. Why in the f*** was it even necessary? We know she was force sensitive. We know it has been decades since we last saw her. Couldn’t she have just been buried in a destroyed bridge and used her fledgling force powers to emerge from the wreckage of a crumbling bridge being sucked into the vacuum of space, and maybe save Admiral Ackbar in the process? BTW – Rian says f*** you to Ackbar too. Man, f*** Yo Heroes and Yo Couch!
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I will say that I’m not opposed to the populist notion of the force that Rian introduced with broom boy – but was that even a revelation? Force sensitives have always come from damn near anywhere. If he doesn’t want it to be genetic – fine, but again… really? Also, in terms of populist heroes, we already had those too. Han Solo, anyone? He was nobody. A random pirate. There is no revelation or reset here Rian. We already had this. We also had real heroes that really blew up the f***ing death star, took down the Emporer, and redeemed Vader. They didn’t just do a brush off after a fakeout move.
Other big s*** that didn’t work:
The Casino storyline was absolute s***. Rian trying to prove that these people aren’t heroes and wanting to “cleverly” subvert the trope that the two little guys take on a secret mission to save the day by having the whole plan be as stupid as Jon Snow’s “let’s grab a walker” mission, and failing miserably. It was corny, forced a needless preachy moment about animal exploitation, and the blurred lines about war profiteering, while killing the pace of the movie, and just generally appearing as needless busy work for lack of any ideas of what to do with Finn. Also the Rose-Finn love interest… ugh.
The bombing run at the beginning. I’m gonna tread lightly here, because this was probably my favorite scene in the entire movie, as it felt like a classic Star Wars moment… The problem was the bombs. They FELL DOWNWARD IN SPACE. For real? Gravity in space? And the pilot – Rose’s sister, she was standing over an open bomb bay without being sucked out into the vacuum LIKE LEIA WAS JUST MOMENTS LATER. I also hate how much Rian neuetered the Resistance to make that such a futile run. Apparently, the combined galactic distrust of the First Order marshaled by Princess freaking Leia, a hero of the war to depose Emperor Palpatine and take down the Galactic Empire, could only muster up the equivalent of 400 total staff and the equivalent of 5 mid 80s conversion vans as their attack vessels? f*** off Rian. No one even had a spare Y wing laying around? And so they have updated X wings, but no other updated ships? Or ever any other fighter/bomber ships at all?
I will say that what saved that scene was Captain Canaday. Played by veteran Welsh actor Mark Lewis Jones (I had to look him up, even if his face was familiar), the Captain of the First Order Dreadnaught was the most on-point classic Imperial officer possible. I loved every one of his roughly 60 seconds of screen time. That guy had obviously watched the original trilogy, and he nailed it. I haven’t seen ANYONE give this guy some run, but he was fantastic in a very limited role. If the rest of the casting and performances had been that classic, I would have peed myself in happiness. His performance, plus the classic hero moment of Rose’s sister redeemed that scene in my eyes.
This guy = freaking awesome.
Moving on, I hated how Luke told Rey he’d teach her 3 lessons in the morning and then only kinda taught her 2. Ive since learned much of that was cut from the final edit, and it probably helped pacing, but it would have made a lot more sense to show that Luke at least gave her the basic intro training that Obi Wan gave him (which he apparently did, even if it got cut).
The dark side hole – this was Rian trying to be cheeky and show there is no pure good or pure evil, only you (or Rey). Then he turns around and allows a character as comically evil as Hux, or as willfully evil as Snoke or Kylo Ren. Way to be consistent Rian.
The jedi are dead. Long live the jedi. I don’t even feel like talking about this. Would it really have been so hard for Luke to pass the baton directly and overtly to Rey to recreate the Jedi Order (version 2.0 - don’t f*** it up like we did, yo)? And for those that missed it, she has the “real page turner” Jedi books. I’ve talked to several people who missed this. She took them, they were on the Falcon near the end of the movie.
As many other people has pointed out – Holdo not telling Poe her plan was a terrible plot device. It was stupid and irresponsible, and f***ing arrogant of Holdo too. It was as stupid as the First Order ships not leapfrogging the Rebel capital ship with short light speed jumps.
I almost forgot that the story has left the Skywalker legacy solely in the hands of Kylo Ren, who has gone full, irredeemable bad guy. What an ignoble end to that story. How pointless all the struggles and all the “chosen one” prophecy. More canon s*** on and tossed out by Rian Johnson.
I have to stop now. I could go on all night. In summary, my biggest problems with this movie were the mistreatment of classic characters, having them go against their natures for expediency, Rian telling fans to f*** off instead of giving us any payoffs to the stuff JJ setup, and just the generally stupid plot holes and devices in the movie.
What I am hoping that happens with IX is that JJ gives us a more balanced film. I don’t really trust him to do it, and surprisingly, he could undo most of what Rian Johnson did without breaking the story. TFA was one extreme - nostalgia and an overkill of familiar tropes. TLJ was a knee jerk in the other extreme - destroying every single trope possible, then strangely leaving several of them open for business anyway, in contradiction of the zealotry to undo them. If JJ can split the difference and give us a film in the middle of those extremes - a few unexpected twists, and new directions for the force, while broadening the Star Wars universe, but reclaiming the spirit of the original trilogy, IX could be really satisfying makeup sex. My fear though, besides whether JJ has it in him, is that there has been no plan for this trilogy, which is the reason all of this knee jerking extremism was allowed to happen. So how could IX possibly put a satisfying end to the story? If he pulls it off, I will revise my estimation of him and become a fan. However, I wish we had a better director to finish the story. Christopher Nolan maybe? I dunno.
I cant let these two things go:
No one says “I’ve got a bad feeling about this”. I can forgive that, but given everything above, feels like another F U moment.
There isn’t one lighstaber duel in the entire movie. The first time aside from Rogue One, another movie I didn’t really like. How do you do Star Wars without a lightsaber fights?
I really liked it. Not much for me to add that hasnt already been talked about here. For the first time in any star wars movie, I dont have a feel for how the next one will go and I like that.
As others have said, the Casino scene was terrible and felt a little to Phantom Menace for me. Also, i just kinda hate the Rose character in general.
Leia in space was terrible. Fucking terrible.
I actually loved the opening battle scene. Probably the best scene in the movie
Lots of hand wringing i heard over the way the handled Snoke. IDGAF about it honestly. Snoke was my least favorite part of Force Awakens but I was pleasantly surprised with how he was handled in this one. I’m not dying to learn his backstory and trust it will be handled in some way moving forward.
I really enjoyed Luke in this one. I liked his snark. I also like the idea of a man struggling with the weight of his own legend. Its not groundbreaking stuff, but this is also a movie about space ninjas so im fine with it.
Most of all, I’m relieved that Disney continues to make solid contact with each of the new SW films. For a brutalized as fans were after the trilogies, its nice to have high expectations again
cass, to be clear, I liked the opening battle scene - gravity and cornball lines and all. It felt like classic star wars. If the whole movie was like that I’d write off my concerns and just enjoy it.
I had the strange thought that so many people bitched about JJ, but they (we err me) are so mad at Rian now, that maybe JJ will get some leeway to right the ship. Maybe JJ is the ex we are ready to get back with?
Star War movies are not as good as they used to be IMO. They are still good, but I doubt I go back to see this one multiple times.
NA Weaponized lightspeed & tracking in warp speed could be believed as advancements in tech. We have more tech than was available 30-40 years ago.
Leia coming back from the dead with no air was dumb. Jedi can’t do that. Of course Jedi can’t project to a fight scene either.
Poor casting for the purple haired general. She looked too much like a mom.
Kylo Ren should leave his shirt on.
The production quality did not live up to the traditional Star Wars ambiance.
Ken, I’m not disbelieving the advancement. I am saying it breaks the entire star wars universe for storytelling. It negates any of the few advantages or safety the rebellion could ever have. It’s the equivalent of invulnerability for superman.
Ken, I’m not disbelieving the advancement. I am saying it breaks the entire star wars universe for storytelling. It negates any of the few advantages or safety the rebellion could ever have. It’s the equivalent of invulnerability for superman.[/quote]
I really didn’t consider this until you said it, and you are right, and I hate you for it.