NNN Motorcycle riders?

Ramblings
21

Well I’ll just throw this out there. I’ve had two Camaro Z28 Convertibles. One with about 320 HP and one with about 360 HP. I also had a Honda CBR 600. Fastest I ever took my sportbike? 100. Fastest I ever took a Camaro? 155 - With the top down.

The fact is, if you understand what a sportbike is, you will know to be more cautious. I never even had a close call. I did 100 on it once. And I don’t think a sportbike will make you any more eager to speed or do crazy stuff than a harley. The only person ive ever known to die from a bike accident was on a harley.

I think it is an easy cop out to say one would be safer on a Harley than on a Sportbike or people who ride sportbikes are more dangerous.

Ever been to bike week at myrtle beach? Black Bike week? I’ve been to both. Several times. You know who’s more dangerous? The white bikers on their Harleys - this is true 10x over. The sportbike crowd is safer, more considerate, and more aware of their surroundings.

Any argument trying to typify all riders by their bikes is ridiculous at best.

22

[QUOTE=jcl49er;227250]Show me a person who owns a high performance sports car and I’ll show you a person who has driven it like an idiot at least once.

And you hold true to my assumption that anyone who owns a sport bike has pushed the envelope at least once or twice. Doing over 100mph on a sport bike to pass a big rig sounds just as dangerous as popping a wheelie at 100mph with no cars around. And because someone was an idiot in a vehicle is no excuse to overuse the bike. You knew you had the power under you to blast by the BMW and you couldn’t resist doing so. Wouldn’t have taken but one quick lane merge by another driver who wasn’t paying attention to have ended your life.[/QUOTE]

I know plenty of people that have sportcars that do not drive them like idiots. Being a mature driver makes a world of difference. As for blasting by the big rig and the BMW… well the big rig was shedding a retread… rubber was going everywhere… so if you were in a car you would have just sat there and let the rubber slam into your car? You would have done what I did… get out of the way as fast as you could. Infact had I been in a car there is a good chance I would have ended up wrecking it. The BMW was weaving back and forth and I am pretty sure he was drunk. I just wanted to put as much distance between he and I as I could… same as I would have done in a car.

To assume you know the daily rider without being a daily rider is wrong. There is a HUGE difference between the rider who rides for transportation, wears gear and has taken safety classes and the weekend rider who knows nothing. I don’t expect you to believe me, but that is the truth. I don’t deny that riding a motorcycle is more dangerous. I am just trying to get the point across that it is NO where near as dangerous as you all seem to believe. If you look at the stats you will see the majority of motorcycle deaths involve, drugs, alcohol and riding beyond one’s abilities (wheelies). I looked at the stats before I got into it and realized that by not drinking, not doing drugs and riding safe that I was much less likely to find myself in the hospital.

If you want a true look at the stats here is the Hurt Study. It will back up some of what you think and challenge some of your preconceived opinions.

http://www.physics.isu.edu/~hackmart/hurt_sum.htm

  1. The median pre-crash speed was 29.8 mph, and the median crash speed was 21.5 mph, and the one-in-a-thousand crash speed is approximately 86 mph.

  2. Craftsmen, laborers, and students comprise most of the accident-involved motorcycle riders. Professionals, sales workers, and craftsmen are underrepresented and laborers, students and unemployed are overrepresented in the accidents.

  3. The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents.

  4. Almost half of the fatal accidents show alcohol involvement.

  5. Motorcycles equipped with fairings and windshields (sportbikes) are underrepresented in accidents, most likely because of the contribution to conspicuity and the association with more experienced and trained riders.

  6. Motorcycle riders in these accidents were significantly without motorcycle license, without any license, or with license revoked.

23
I think it is an easy cop out to say one would be safer on a Harley than on a Sportbike or people who ride sportbikes are more dangerous.

Ever been to bike week at myrtle beach? Black Bike week? I’ve been to both. Several times. You know who’s more dangerous? The white bikers on their Harleys - this is true 10x over. The sportbike crowd is safer, more considerate, and more aware of their surroundings.

Any argument trying to typify all riders by their bikes is ridiculous at best.


I think you’re putting words into my mouth. I didn’t say that a Harley was safer than a sports bike. I simply said that I feel that sports bikes are marketed for speed and Harleys are marketed more towards a lifestyle. Aside from cost, there’s a reason why the majority of HD riders aren’t 21 year old college kids. I’m not saying one doesn’t exist but let’s face it, the majority of 16-25 year old motorcycle owners, own sport bikes. Most kids in that age group are attracted to sport bikes because of their power and style (being styled partly for speed/aerodynamics). You won’t convince me otherwise because those bikes flat out aren’t comfortable enough for cross-country or even cross-state travel. Sure, you can do it and I’m sure you’ve been comfortable doing so but they’re not touring bikes in the least little bit.

And I have no clue why you brought race into it. I don’t see what that has to do with anything in this thread and discredits your voice, IMO.

24
I know plenty of people that have sportcars that do not drive them like idiots.

I do as well but are we in the car with them 24/7? I doubt anyone who owns a 350HP+ sports car has never pushed it at least once. If not, then what’s the point of even buying a car with that much under the hood? Just the knowledge that it’s there? Yeah, right.

As for blasting by the big rig and the BMW... well the big rig was shedding a retread... rubber was going everywhere... so if you were in a car you would have just sat there and let the rubber slam into your car? You would have done what I did... get out of the way as fast as you could.

Actually, I wouldn’t have. Call me an old fart but if I were in my car behind a truck shredding a tire, I would have slowed down and evaded the debris as best I could. I certainly wouldn’t have floored it and topped 100mph just to get past him. I’m beyond the point in my life where I have ANY need to exceed 100mph on a bike or in a car. That would require me to instantly increase my interstate speed by 30-35 and that’s not really something I’d choose to do. That would only make a dangerous situation more dangerous.

To assume you know the daily rider without being a daily rider is wrong. There is a HUGE difference between the rider who rides for transportation, wears gear and has taken safety classes and the weekend rider who knows nothing. I don't expect you to believe me, but that is the truth.

Why wouldn’t I believe you or understand the difference? Of course there is a big difference. And I’m sure that one is at a higher risk than the other. But my point is that both are still at a higher risk of dying that anyone in a vehicle (assuming no drugs, alcohol or excessive speed are involved.

I don't deny that riding a motorcycle is more dangerous.

That’s really all I was trying to state. I don’t think that everyone who gets on a bike is going to die. I rode fast (CR125-CR500) dirtbikes from age 10-16 and there were other parents who thought my parents were nuts. And they thought they are incredible dangerous. Sure, I had some spills and a couple muffler burns on my calf but nothing major. I rode responsibly and with protective gear, and on a bike capable of killing me quite easily. So I agree that the rider and the precautions taken, make a big difference. But riding any motorcycle, where you are exposed to the open road, cars and elements, will always be more dangerous than strapping into a car. That’s a fact that cannot be disputed.

25

[QUOTE=jcl49er;227260]I think you’re putting words into my mouth. I didn’t say that a Harley was safer than a sports bike. I simply said that I feel that sports bikes are marketed for speed and Harleys are marketed more towards a lifestyle. Aside from cost, there’s a reason why the majority of HD riders aren’t 21 year old college kids. I’m not saying one doesn’t exist but let’s face it, the majority of 16-25 year old motorcycle owners, own sport bikes. Most kids in that age group are attracted to sport bikes because of their power and style (being styled partly for speed/aerodynamics). You won’t convince me otherwise because those bikes flat out are comfortable enough for cross-country or even cross-state travel. Sure, you can do it and I’m sure you’ve been comfortable doing so but they’re not touring bikes in the least little bit.

And I have no clue why you brought race into it. I don’t see what that has to do with anything in this thread and discredits your voice, IMO.[/QUOTE]

So basically what you are saying is what I have been saying all along, that the RIDER is a LARGE part of the problem. The 16-25 year olds on a bike, any bike, are not going to be as safe as a more mature rider. For the record my sportbike is the choice for long distance riding. There are 2 kinds of sport bikes, the touring sport bikes and the race replicas. The race replicas are the uncomfortable super performance machines. The sport touring bikes look like a sport bike, but they have comfortable seat and are designed for longer distance riding.

26
So basically what you are saying is what I have been saying all along, that the RIDER is a LARGE part of the problem.

Partially. That’s somewhat of an obvious assumption that applies across the board. Wouldn’t you say a 16 year old driving a car is more apt to wreck/die than a 50 year old driving the same car? Statistics show that new drivers are some of the most dangerous on the road. So of course the rider/driver is part of the problem, regardless of the means of transportation. That doesn’t really change the fact that motorcycle riders are more apt to die in a crash than car drivers in the same crash. But yes, we can both agree that the rider does make a difference in the rate of crashing.

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Partially. That's somewhat of an obvious assumption that applies across the board. Wouldn't you say a 16 year old driving a car is more apt to wreck/die than a 50 year old driving the same car? Statistics show that new drivers are some of the most dangerous on the road. So of course the rider/driver is part of the problem, regardless of the means of transportation. That doesn't really change the fact that motorcycle riders are more apt to die in a crash than car drivers in the same crash. But yes, we can both agree that the rider does make a difference in the rate of crashing.

errrr… I heard the opposite is true. Old people are more dangerous on the road.

28
I definitely plan on owning a bike (HD) later in life but there's no way in hell it would be driven during the work week, nor would it be driven in or around Charlotte. I'd own it for the sole purpose of just getting out of town on nice weather day and heading somewhere that's very light in traffic. It would be my source of escape from the hustle/bustle of places like Charlotte one or two times a month. Sure, I know it's still very dangerous even for those purposes. But it's definitely safer than riding them as a means of commuting or every day transportation. I see people driving sport bikes up 485/77 during morning commutes with back packs on, on their way to work. To me, that's just a death wish.

And I respect the right to own a sport bike but personally, I just see no point in it because 90% of the people I see on them, completely abuse them. They’re built for speed and that’s why most people buy them. I’ve seen way too many idiots on one wheel at 100mph on 485 and weaving in/out of traffic at over 100mph. I also knew a guy who wrecked his sport bike a few years ago on 485 East, just shy of 74. To this day, his family still puts a little cross in the median where his body slid into the wiring at around 80mph, ripping his body apart. He was around 23 when they buried him. There wasn’t a single car around him when he wrecked. He was just misusing the bike. No, I’m not saying everyone who owns a sport bike drives irresponsibly. But I’d be willing to bet everyone has pushed the envelope at least once or twice. There’s no way you can buy a bike like that and drive it all the time, like you would a Harley. The temptation to get on it is just too strong.

A HD will hit 100mph too. They weave to. I saw a dude on a harley just cruising past everyone on my way to work. I was going 80, he must of been on the high end of 90. just cruzin in and our of traffic. Little helmet on. No protection on at all. Wearing black, on a black motorcycle. That guy as asking to die.

Last time I rode, I had Yahama Racing Blue bike, and jacket and full face helmet and gloves. There is a small minority of riders who make all riders look bad. Its the same with the sport compact tuners and the muscle car guys. A few bad apples make everyone look bad. People automatically label you a ‘street racer’ because you have an upgraded suspension or exhaust.

I agree with chevee, go to myrtle beach for bike week or something. See how many ‘older’ guys you see out there, acting ‘lawless’ withouth their wives around. They drink at bars, and then ‘raise hell’ (burning out and stuff). There is an equal representation of jackasses on both sides of the motorcycle world.

29
errrr.... I heard the opposite is true. Old people are more dangerous on the road.

Some of you really need to read more closely before commenting. I stated 16 vs 50. Hate to tell you but a 16 year old is FAR more dangerous on the road than a 50 year old. Now, if you want to compare 16 to 90, then maybe you have some credibility with that argument.

30

Here is the plain and simple bottom line:

It DOESNT MATTER how “smart” of a rider you are, there are still idiots out there in cars that will hit you because they dont pay attention to the road.

If you are a smart driver in a car and you get hit by one of these idiots, you have a decent shot at being OK.

If you are a “smart rider” on a motorcylce, and get hit by one of these idiots, you are DONE.

I love how people say “oh Im a ‘smart’ rider on my bike, I will be OK.” Think about how many millions of STUPID drivers there are out there in cars. There is not a damn thing you can do about those guys.

How many people do you know that were in car wrecks that “werent their fault”? Quite a few probably. If all those people were on motorcycles, 90% of them would be dead, the other 10% would be paralyzed or f***ed up beyond recognition.

Ahh, common sense… gotta love it :shades:

31
A HD will hit 100mph too. They weave to. I saw a dude on a harley just cruising past everyone on my way to work. I was going 80, he must of been on the high end of 90. just cruzin in and our of traffic. Little helmet on. No protection on at all. Wearing black, on a black motorcycle. That guy as asking to die.

Last time I rode, I had Yahama Racing Blue bike, and jacket and full face helmet and gloves. There is a small minority of riders who make all riders look bad. Its the same with the sport compact tuners and the muscle car guys. A few bad apples make everyone look bad. People automatically label you a ‘street racer’ because you have an upgraded suspension or exhaust.

I agree with chevee, go to myrtle beach for bike week or something. See how many ‘older’ guys you see out there, acting ‘lawless’ withouth their wives around. They drink at bars, and then ‘raise hell’ (burning out and stuff). There is an equal representation of jackasses on both sides of the motorcycle world.

I give up. Pointless to debate this when apparently, people read way too much into what I’m trying to say or put words into my mouth. Your first paragraph has absolutely nothing to do with the points I’ve been trying to make…lol

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[QUOTE=Chisox17;227296]
I love how people say “oh Im a ‘smart’ rider on my bike, I will be OK.” Think about how many millions of STUPID drivers there are out there in cars. There is not a damn thing you can do about those guys.

How many people do you know that were in car wrecks that “werent their fault”? Quite a few probably. If all those people were on motorcycles, 90% of them would be dead, the other 10% would be paralyzed or f***ed up beyond recognition.

Ahh, common sense… gotta love it :shades:[/QUOTE]

Again there are things that a rider can do to lessen the chance you will be involved in an accident. Wearing gear and having training go a LONG way towards keeping you safe on the road. Being a smart rider does not mean you will be ok… just as being a smart driver does not mean you will be ok. Being a smart rider just lessens the risk. Motorcycle riding will always be more dangerous, just as driving a small car will always be more dangerous than a SUV. That does not mean that riding in a small car guarantees that you are going to die. It just means you have to understand that you are in a small car and drive accordingly. I really get riled up when non-riders lump all motorcycle riders into the same group.

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I give up. Pointless to debate this when apparently, people read way too much into what I'm trying to say or put words into my mouth. [B][I]Your first paragraph has absolutely nothing to do with the points I've been trying to make[/I][/B]....lol

You did say sport bike riders were more dangerous then HD riders. Im just pointing out, HD drivers are just as bad. Its a few rotten apples that make all bikers look bad.

Your never going to get your point across about how dangerous a sportbike is to people who ride them. I’ve had a buddy of mine die because of it. Poor guy, lost both legs first, then bleed to death. Took 2 days for him to die. He was screwing around. Even knowing that though, I still will ride a motorcycle. The way I see it, when its my time to go, its my time to do. Whether I am in a car or motorcycle, its gonna happen. If I was scared of being a victim in a traffic accident, I wouldnt drive. Just a different way of looking at things I guess.

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Again there are things that a rider can do to lessen the chance you will be involved in an accident. Wearing gear and having training go a LONG way towards keeping you safe on the road. Being a smart rider does not mean you will be ok.. just as being a smart driver does not mean you will be ok. Being a smart rider just lessens the risk. Motorcycle riding will always be more dangerous, just as driving a small car will always be more dangerous than a SUV. That does not mean that riding in a small car guarantees that you are going to die. It just means you have to understand that you are in a small car and drive accordingly.[B] I really get riled up when non-riders lump all motorcycle riders into the same group[/B].

Agreed. No one thinks of the guys who ride up in the mountains on clear blue days. All they see are scenes from Fast in Furious but with motorcycles. Or those stunt guys.

I’ll tell ya one thing though, from a car guys perspective, a motorcycle is about as pure as the man and machine connection get. Its kind of like owning a classic car, where its all about the man and the car, no computers and stuff. If your not into that kinda thing, its hard to get into motorcycles for the real enjoyment. Then your only getting into motorcycles because its considered cool or because you wanna feel like a bad ass once a week or something.

I personally prefer sportbikes, because of where their power band is. I like the 4banger revving into the 10k range. But I like HD for their just nasty sound and low down torque. You can accelerate quickly without having to drop 3 gears.

35

[QUOTE=Gill2003;227326]Agreed. No one thinks of the guys who ride up in the mountains on clear blue days…[/QUOTE]

Hah, funny you mention that Gill. I almost saw a guy get killed on a motorcylce once. Where was I? On a mountain road on a clear blue day.

Im not trying to convince anyone here not to ride. Everyone can do what they want, I just get so frustrated with the “oh im a ‘smart rider,’ everything will be OK” argument. It doesnt matter how smart you are, if some idiot runs a top sign and side swipes you at even 15 mph, you’re gonna be messed up, I dont care how “smart” you ride.

But like I said, if riding a motorcylce is your passion, have at it. But just make sure you realise you aren’t invincible.

36

[QUOTE=Gill2003;227326]Agreed. No one thinks of the guys who ride up in the mountains on clear blue days. All they see are scenes from Fast in Furious but with motorcycles. Or those stunt guys.

I’ll tell ya one thing though, from a car guys perspective, a motorcycle is about as pure as the man and machine connection get. Its kind of like owning a classic car, where its all about the man and the car, no computers and stuff. If your not into that kinda thing, its hard to get into motorcycles for the real enjoyment. Then your only getting into motorcycles because its considered cool or because you wanna feel like a bad ass once a week or something.

I personally prefer sportbikes, because of where their power band is. I like the 4banger revving into the 10k range. But I like HD for their just nasty sound and low down torque. You can accelerate quickly without having to drop 3 gears.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I have a 04 VRod and it is fun. I ride too much though… the poor bike stays dirty. I am going to trade my 01 Triumph TT600 sportbike in on a Triumph Sprint ST in late 07 or early 08. The TT600 is a 4banger sportbike and the Sprint is a triple sport touring bike. I ride to Birmingham every year for the AMA Superbike race down there and I want to get a bike that can take some hard luggage. I have gotten tired of trying to strap a weekend’s worth of clothes on the bike.

You are right though about the feeling. Until you get on one and experience you can not describe it. Riding down an open road, just you the machine and the road. One of my life goals is to ride cross country, so come one and get another one and you can come along.

37
You are right though about the feeling. Until you get on one and experience you can not describe it.

I can describe it. Intense pain… from being sewn up and put back together.

:lmao:
Just kidding, guys… Couldn’t pass that up.

38

To me, this discussion isn’t much different than critiquing someone on their skydiving, bungee jumping, surfing, cycling, etc. hobby. The people that do it are well aware of any risks…including those beyond their control. Just as has been mentioned before, there are definitely ways to SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the risk of being hurt.

For our motorcycle example, properly trained, responsible riders are at much less risk than those who are self-taught, in over their head, or reckless. Some of the “unavoidable” incidents that I’ve seen mentioned are not necessarily unavoidable to those that have been properly trained. Part of being a good rider is trying to never even put yourself in a position where something could go wrong. No, this does not mean you are invincible or can control your surroundings…but I do feel that a responsible rider is 100x more aware of their surroundings than the standard car driver, simply because they have to be. The stop sign example posted above could possibly be avoided by a good rider…Why? Because he would instinctively be scanning the road multiple times before proceeding. If he was in a position where he couldn’t clearly see if something was coming, he would either put himself in a position to see better or slow down dramatically.

The same scenario goes for getting cut-off in an “unavoidable” accident on the highway. No, you can’t keep an eye on everyone all the time…but part of being a good rider is never putting yourself in a position to get cut-off. I’m sure that some of you with smaller cars do the same thing. When I’m on the highway in my Miata, I make it a point to always stay visible. It even comes down to a point where you need to accurately predict what other people are going to do. It works. It’s not perfect by any means, but it will still keep you as safe on a motorcycle as you can possibly be.

I don’t care much for statistics, as it does not take everything into account. Would you say that a professional race car driver is just likely to get in an accident as a 16 year old? Would an experienced, responsible rider be just as likely to get in an accident as a reckless new rider on a liter supersport bike? I’m also not sure where folks are getting these “90% of people in a motorcycle wreck die” or “even 15mph will mess you up”. That just reinforces how misinformed some folks really are.

For some reason the anti-bike guys seem to want the motorcyclists to acknowledge that an accident on a motorcycle would be far worse than the same accident in a car. I don’t think there is a problem there. All of the riders will tell you that if they happened to get hit BY a car at 70mph vs. getting hit IN a car at 70mph, they would be much worse off. The problem is in HOW it’s being approached - by assuming that it’s so easy to get in an accident on a motorcycle. The standard driver is far more likely to be involved in a high-speed accident than an experienced motorcyclist. Plain and simple.

Would you be upset if your friend with 3 kids was a skydiver? bungee jumper? surfer? bicyclist? runner? The result would be the same whether the skydiver’s chute didn’t deploy or the runner got hit by a car while crossing the street in their neighborhood - since everyone seems to want to look at the extremes. There will always be uncontrollable factors with each and everything that you do. Some folks enjoy taking risks to live their lifestyle. If that is their (and their family’s) personal decision, it shouldn’t be criticized.

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[QUOTE=LugNutX;227362]To me, this discussion isn’t much different than critiquing someone on their skydiving, bungee jumping, surfing, cycling, etc. hobby. The people that do it are well aware of any risks…including those beyond their control. Just as has been mentioned before, there are definitely ways to SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the risk of being hurt.

Would you be upset if your friend with 3 kids was a skydiver? bungee jumper? surfer? bicyclist? runner? The result would be the same whether the skydiver’s chute didn’t deploy or the runner got hit by a car while crossing the street in their neighborhood - since everyone seems to want to look at the extremes. There will always be uncontrollable factors with each and everything that you do. Some folks enjoy taking risks to live their lifestyle. If that is their (and their family’s) personal decision, it shouldn’t be criticized.[/QUOTE]

Excellent post!

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You did say sport bike riders were more dangerous then HD riders. Im just pointing out, HD drivers are just as bad. Its a few rotten apples that make all bikers look bad.

Well, I was done commenting but Gill keeps telling me things I’ve said. For the 100th time, no, I did not state that and if you’d take the time to read every single thing I’ve said, you’re realize that you’re putting words in my mouth (again).

Things I’ve stated:

[LIST]
[]IMO, sport bikes are built/marketed for speed and HD’s are done so more for lifestyle.
[]Majority of sport bike owners abuse the power of the bikes at least once or twice (though I know it’s more even if they won’t admit it)
[]Told WB I felt he made a dangerous move by opting to speed well over the limit to pass a semi truck
[]Said that you’re asking for an early grave if you drive a sport bike around Charlotte on a regular basis, which was in direct response to WB’s driving habits.[/LIST]Motorcycles are dangerous, period. You can get killed on a HD just as easy as you can on a sport bike. But, drugs/alcohol taken out of the equation, I know what I see on a daily basis. And I see far more sport bikes hauling ass on one wheel up 485 than I see HD’s doing anything wreckless. Not saying it doesn’t happen and I also know that there are probably more sport bikes on the road than HD’s, which makes them easier to spot. But not a week goes by that I don’t see someone on a sport bike doing something stupid on the interstate. I have never seen a HD driver do anything remotely stupid on the interstate other than maybe cruising above the speed limit. But again, this doesn’t make sport bikes more dangerous. It makes the demographic that sport bike manufactures target more dangerous.