If we wait 5 or 6 years and it isnât turned around we might as well pack in the basketball program and drop the sport.
How many with actual talent left? I canât remember everyone but Clark didnât do anything when he left. Henry, Clayton, Thorne, Williams were here entire time. Lester was graids. Ingram is the one guy that comes to mind that hurt to lose. Obviously Woods/Dorn once he was let go. I am sure I am missing people but I donât remember losing that much true talent.[/quote]
Talent isnât the only thing to look at. There is value in roster stability, not to mention the APR impact of a roster that is constantly in flux.
Letâs see the players Major couldnt keep:
Spears - BehaviorâHad to kick him. Lutz guy.
Ingram - Transfer âImpact loss
Clark - TransferâNot any good
EVic - TransferâCanât help what mom wants
Big Phil - GradesâPhil was like 22 or 23. Get your big ass in class. Lutz guy
Lester - GradesâHe is the type of player you have to take a chance on. He had problems from the very beginning
Bryan - TransferâNot any good
KJ - Transferâ5th year right, Lutz guy.
Demario - RulesâCanât help stupid. Again, type of guy you have take a chance on. He was better than damn near anyone brought in by Price.
Luka - StuffâNot any good
Gohkan - Back HomeâBig balls, not any good. Lutz guy.
Deuce - TransferâLutz guy
I like how we s*** on Major for players leaving since they were forced to stay, yet Price gets a bare cupboard and all the time in the world.[/quote]
[quote=âwinsel1081, post:3, topic:30837â]Interesting if Duke had taken that same attitude then wonder where Coach K would be right now. If UNC had done the same wonder what the Dean Smith center would be instead. Gary Williams would have been out of Maryland. No Mckillop at Davidson.
I am not saying Price will be any of those coaches but just remember that some highly successful college coaches didnât had worse records in their third year than the first two![/quote]
This line of reasoning always makes me laugh.
How many with actual talent left? I canât remember everyone but Clark didnât do anything when he left. Henry, Clayton, Thorne, Williams were here entire time. Lester was graids. Ingram is the one guy that comes to mind that hurt to lose. Obviously Woods/Dorn once he was let go. I am sure I am missing people but I donât remember losing that much true talent.[/quote]
Talent isnât the only thing to look at. There is value in roster stability, not to mention the APR impact of a roster that is constantly in flux.
Letâs see the players Major couldnt keep:
Spears - BehaviorâHad to kick him. Lutz guy.
Ingram - Transfer âImpact loss
Clark - TransferâNot any good
EVic - TransferâCanât help what mom wants
Big Phil - GradesâPhil was like 22 or 23. Get your big ass in class. Lutz guy
Lester - GradesâHe is the type of player you have to take a chance on. He had problems from the very beginning
Bryan - TransferâNot any good
KJ - Transferâ5th year right, Lutz guy.
Demario - RulesâCanât help stupid. Again, type of guy you have take a chance on. He was better than damn near anyone brought in by Price.
Luka - StuffâNot any good
Gohkan - Back HomeâBig balls, not any good. Lutz guy.
Deuce - TransferâLutz guy
I like how we s*** on Major for players leaving since they were forced to stay, yet Price gets a bare cupboard and all the time in the world.[/quote][/quote]
Yes some were forced to stay and I think we see now that was the smarter approach.
If we wait 5 or 6 years and it isnât turned around we might as well pack in the basketball program and drop the sport.[/quote]
Agreed, this recruiting cycle and next years play are key. If we donât close well with recruits this year, and donât win 18-20 next year its time to cut bait.
If we wait 5 or 6 years and it isnât turned around we might as well pack in the basketball program and drop the sport.[/quote]
Agreed, this recruiting cycle and next years play are key. If we donât close well with recruits this year, and donât win 18-20 next year its time to cut bait.[/quote]
Anybody noticed what is happening at NC State? Look at what Gottfried has accomplished there and heâs getting run out of town. Consequently, articles are popping up calling the job a black hole. No coach wants to go there. If we cut bait after 3 years, how does that make us look? Granted any bad PR for Judy Rose would be much welcomed.
[quote=âNinerWupAss, post:15, topic:30837â][quote=âhootie, post:14, topic:30837â]I like so many things about Price and really want him to succeed but if doesnât get some players in here heâs not gonna make it long term.
We arenât going to get the Lonzo Ballâs of the world but we need to be getting better talent than the rest of CUSA. I canât imagine that itâs easier to recruit to Huntington, WV than Charlotte, NC.
Hell, Alan Major got talent here and that really is not debatable considering that the guys he had here and coming here are ACC contributors.[/quote]
He did and then many of them left - which should make you question what he was selling. I donât know how Mark sells things, but I have a feeling maybe he is being too honest. With Woods and Dorn he seemed to not be interested in playing the game. I am sure 2k has better line of site to this than most of us.[/quote]Iâm pretty sure Woods only have stayed if Dinkins came on board with Watkins (whatever their arrangement would have been). Once everyone else was gone, Dorn took off.
If we wait 5 or 6 years and it isnât turned around we might as well pack in the basketball program and drop the sport.[/quote]
Agreed, this recruiting cycle and next years play are key. If we donât close well with recruits this year, and donât win 18-20 next year its time to cut bait.[/quote]
Anybody noticed what is happening at NC State? Look at what Gottfried has accomplished there and heâs getting run out of town. Consequently, articles are popping up calling the job a black hole. No coach wants to go there. If we cut bait after 3 years, how does that make us look? Granted any bad PR for Judy Rose would be much welcomed.[/quote]Firing Price after just 3 years after he needs a complete rebuilding and 10+ years of no NCAAâs, this place would scream toxic to any worthy candidate.
Price and company have to get some big men, we know it and they know it. Letâs see what the roster looks like come this Fall.
How many with actual talent left? I canât remember everyone but Clark didnât do anything when he left. Henry, Clayton, Thorne, Williams were here entire time. Lester was graids. Ingram is the one guy that comes to mind that hurt to lose. Obviously Woods/Dorn once he was let go. I am sure I am missing people but I donât remember losing that much true talent.[/quote]
Talent isnât the only thing to look at. There is value in roster stability, not to mention the APR impact of a roster that is constantly in flux.
Letâs see the players Major couldnt keep:
Spears - BehaviorâHad to kick him. Lutz guy.
Ingram - Transfer âImpact loss
Clark - TransferâNot any good
EVic - TransferâCanât help what mom wants
Big Phil - GradesâPhil was like 22 or 23. Get your big ass in class. Lutz guy
Lester - GradesâHe is the type of player you have to take a chance on. He had problems from the very beginning
Bryan - TransferâNot any good
KJ - Transferâ5th year right, Lutz guy.
Demario - RulesâCanât help stupid. Again, type of guy you have take a chance on. He was better than damn near anyone brought in by Price.
Luka - StuffâNot any good
Gohkan - Back HomeâBig balls, not any good. Lutz guy.
Deuce - TransferâLutz guy
I like how we s*** on Major for players leaving since they were forced to stay, yet Price gets a bare cupboard and all the time in the world.[/quote][/quote]
Yes some were forced to stay and I think we see now that was the smarter approach.[/quote]
I think there were too many variables in play to say which approach was smarter. Neither situation was good. I think Price could have better handled a situation similar to when Major took over , and Major could have better handled a situation similar to when Price took over.
Price signed a 5-year contract. If he signed a 6-year or 7-year contract, next year would not matter as much. Itâs clear this year doesnât matter much for his future, thatâs why he is not playing his 7-footers even when weâre giving up 50 points in the paint, but thatâs a different conversation.
He signed a 5-year contract, and giving him a 4th-year would require an extension of at least 1 year. If we get worse next year, I donât know how anyone could have any confidence that heâs the guy to fix things. Nobodyâs asking us to earn an at-large bid, but if the team shows no improvement or worst case scenario even more regression itâll be clear (to me) that keeping Price would just be digging the whole deeper.
But this is Charlotte, Judy âStudent Fees Paid For My Boatâ Rose is tied at hip with Price. Even though Phil is an absolute boob, he would have to axe Judy if she fired a third MBB coach (that she hired) in the span of 8 years. But Phil is detached and apathetic enough to keep letting Price coach as long as Judy doesnât admit she was wrong (again).
I hope the team improves next year, but with out some discipline being coached on defense, or a big man that contributes, it seems improbable.
Iâll get season tickets next year, as long as our home schedule is 100% D1, to cheer the Niners on.
[quote=âNinerWupAss, post:24, topic:30837â]Yes some were forced to stay and I think we see now that was the smarter approach.[/quote] I disagree for both coaches. Major was a good recruiter, the extra available spots would likely have been filled with more decent players. If those Lutz guys are allowed to leave, I think the program wouldâve been in better shape longer term, though it might depend on whether Braswell decides to bolt right away. I donât think Major was all that hamstrung by lack of success on the court when he was recruiting, considering he got Woods and Dorn here, followed by Izundu seemingly, with some pretty awful years directly before. Holding players was a bad move by Rose in my view and it made it tougher for Major in the very area he seemed worst at dealing with, team chemistry and cohesiveness. Eventually it wouldnât have worked out anyway because I donât think Major was a good coach for many other reasons.
Now for Price, I think you could argue it mightâve helped him. Heâs obviously not bringing in a ton of talent on his own, so he may have needed more program success to get good players in. But weâd still be lacking post players, since Thorne wouldâve been able to leave regardless as a grad transfer. And Price may have had more problems with team chemistry too, particularly with all the losing that would be happening.
If things get worse than this year, then thatâs impressively bad and it will be time to note there is something wrong in the program. If we finish even lower in this awful conference, then Price has to be let go I think, but that would likely only happen if players quit on the coach or lots of players transfer out.
I think things are likely to get a little better, considering weâll have more experience for the younger guys and the guys leaving have struggled this year. Weâll still likely have issues in the post without some serious recruiting luck/success, so I donât think weâll be all that much better. So the follow-up question is if in year 4 we are only slightly improved (say 100-200 rpi or so), the post players coming in are similar to what weâve had so far, the defense is about the same or slightly better, do you give Price an extension?
Coach Price? Why are we talking about the Womenâs Tennis team? :))
If we wait 5 or 6 years and it isnât turned around we might as well pack in the basketball program and drop the sport.[/quote]
Agreed, this recruiting cycle and next years play are key. If we donât close well with recruits this year, and donât win 18-20 next year its time to cut bait.[/quote]
Anybody noticed what is happening at NC State? Look at what Gottfried has accomplished there and heâs getting run out of town. Consequently, articles are popping up calling the job a black hole. No coach wants to go there. If we cut bait after 3 years, how does that make us look? Granted any bad PR for Judy Rose would be much welcomed.[/quote]
I agree. As hard as it is to lose we have to give him time. Firing him after next year would not be a good look for the program. Recruiting takes time especially with what he has to sell right now. Hopefully he can right the ship soon.
If we are having this conversation after year 5 then move on.
[quote=â9erken, post:31, topic:30837â]If things get worse than this year, then thatâs impressively bad and it will be time to note there is something wrong in the program. If we finish even lower in this awful conference, then Price has to be let go I think, but that would likely only happen if players quit on the coach or lots of players transfer out.
I think things are likely to get a little better, considering weâll have more experience for the younger guys and the guys leaving have struggled this year. Weâll still likely have issues in the post without some serious recruiting luck/success, so I donât think weâll be all that much better. So the follow-up question is if in year 4 we are only slightly improved (say 100-200 rpi or so), the post players coming in are similar to what weâve had so far, the defense is about the same or slightly better, do you give Price an extension?[/quote]
100-200 RPI is a wide window to expain as slightly improved. 200 is slightly improved⌠100 would be sign Price to 5 year extension.
I was going to put this in its own thread, but here just seemed right.
If we wait 5 or 6 years and it isnât turned around we might as well pack in the basketball program and drop the sport.[/quote]
Agreed, this recruiting cycle and next years play are key. If we donât close well with recruits this year, and donât win 18-20 next year its time to cut bait.[/quote]
Anybody noticed what is happening at NC State? Look at what Gottfried has accomplished there and heâs getting run out of town. Consequently, articles are popping up calling the job a black hole. No coach wants to go there. If we cut bait after 3 years, how does that make us look? Granted any bad PR for Judy Rose would be much welcomed.[/quote]
I agree. As hard as it is to lose we have to give him time. Firing him after next year would not be a good look for the program. Recruiting takes time especially with what he has to sell right now. Hopefully he can right the ship soon.
If we are having this conversation after year 5 then move on.[/quote]
If we wait for year 4, 5 or 6 for Price to prove himself and he doesnât, guess what coaches will want to coach here: The coaches that want an easy job that theyâll only need to give 80% of their energy to.
If next year is a step back (or sideways, arguably) we wonât be scaring away any good coaching candidates by moving on. Weâd have to offer more than a 5-year contract to someone with head coaching experience, but aside from that, weâd by fine. Any possible damage that could cause would be less than or equal to the damage keeping Price for a fourth or fifth year would cause.
[quote=âNugget, post:35, topic:30837â]I was going to put this in its own thread, but here just seemed right.
âSoccer is so fluid that its coaches are often rendered obsoleteâ
Mou would disagree
[quote author=Nugget link=topic=34807.msg682039#msg682039 date=1488555628]
I think we found out two years ago what $500k will buy you in a coach, and Price may truly be the best we can get for that./quote]
From what heâs shown us so far, there are plenty of coaches out there who are better than Mark Price who make $500k or less. Better coaches in this state in fact.
Ingram - Good player, averaged 14ppg as sr.
Deuce - Good player, would have liked to kept.
Big Phil - Not sure how much to blame coaching staff on this.
Spears - Was legitimately crazy. No problem with letting him go.
Clark - Dude averaged 2ppg at USC and then transferred to Grand Canyon. No Thanks.
EVic - Absolute bust. Averaged 4.2ppg as senior for Valpo.
Lester - Didnât have the grades to make it anywhere else. Hasnât played since. Not staffâs fault.
Bryan - Currently averaging 2.3ppg at UNCW. Do you really think we are missing out?
KJ - Was averaging 2.8ppg when he left. Did we really miss that?
Gohkan - Was averaging 3.3ppg. Dude was better off playing pro in Turkey
Luka - Not staffâs fault.
Demario - Dude was given chance after chance after chance. Good player, but it happens.
So, Ingram and Deuce are really the only ones I feel like we lost. Demario and Shamari were good, but not the staffâs fault. Other than that you listed a bunch of guys who averaged like 2 points per game.
Major could not coach or run a team to save his life. Transfers, looking back now, really werenât as much of a problem as we thought. Letâs not complicate this, itâs pretty simple. He just couldnât do anything with talent.
All of this is moot though. Price needs to bring in some players⌠or bring in an assistant who can.
If we somehow get worse next year we should definitely move on from Price. But⌠I donât think weâll be worse.
I am a big Price fan going back to his playing days, so I was pretty excited when he got hired. I think we are miles ahead of Majorâs teams on offense, but miles behind on defense and in the post. I gotta think Price finds some way to get us playing competitive defense. I hope we see some sort of shake up of the coaching staff. Either bringing in a defensive expert or bringing in a former big man (DeMarco?) who can go find us a big or two.
The main thing I want to see is for his team to show a little more pride and heart. So much of defense is about effort, they should be leaving it all out on the floor. I donât always get that feeling from this team.
[quote=âcibik02, post:34, topic:30837â][quote=â9erken, post:31, topic:30837â]If things get worse than this year, then thatâs impressively bad and it will be time to note there is something wrong in the program. If we finish even lower in this awful conference, then Price has to be let go I think, but that would likely only happen if players quit on the coach or lots of players transfer out.
I think things are likely to get a little better, considering weâll have more experience for the younger guys and the guys leaving have struggled this year. Weâll still likely have issues in the post without some serious recruiting luck/success, so I donât think weâll be all that much better. So the follow-up question is if in year 4 we are only slightly improved (say 100-200 rpi or so), the post players coming in are similar to what weâve had so far, the defense is about the same or slightly better, do you give Price an extension?[/quote]
100-200 RPI is a wide window to expain as slightly improved. 200 is slightly improved⌠100 would be sign Price to 5 year extension.[/quote] 100+ rpi is not even in the conversation for an at-large, no NIT, probably not even an offer for the CBI, and probably 3rd or 4th in a typical year in CUSA 3.0. So I donât see it as all that much different from 199 rpi in terms of our goals. Itâs obviously better than where we are now, but thatâs not saying much, so is that enough for an extension?
Maybe it should be given how low weâve sunk. Iâm just not sure if that means Price is a good solution long term or not. Weâve given too many extensions lately to failing coaches, so maybe thatâs making me a little overly pessimistic. In addition, Iâd be wary if Price doesnât start to have more consistent recruiting success, year 4 will be Davisâ senior year.