Sad to watch...

49ers Basketball Forum 🏀 Smack Talk
41

When we fird Lutz, Marshall was making $750K or so at Wichita State. We couldn’t afford him.

If you wish we had fired Lutz earlier, which I know there were many who did, realize that we would have been competing with that kind of salary even when he was looking to leave Winthrop.

I’m not arguing against your point that we should also consider HC’s but I am at a loss for whom we could have pulled in our budget when we hired Major. I’m not trying to be a dick about it, I seriously cannot think of any - all the guys we talked about back then - Rice, Brownell, etc all went for big money to BCS schools. Could we have gotten Lebo or Dooley? Dooley was on our list. And Im sorry, but I am not upset that we missed out on Lebo…

I was pretty happy with the list we put together. Let’s do a what if, since we’re already playing that game - what if the Syracuse scandal had broken earlier and Hopkins decided to get the hell out of dodge. Almost nobody who has anything to say about him thinks he isnt a great HC candidate (which is why he was our first choice). But if he struggled out of the gate, even with his credentials, would you still be pissed?

BTW our last two coaches had no D1 head coaching experience.

In a perfect world, we have a $5Mil/yr budget and can get anyone we want. But that isnt reality. I think we went the value route and yes it backfired, but I still think our biggest problem isn’t Major’s occassional brain farts/inexperience, it’s not having a full roster of players to play his style. We need 4 big wings and a stopper to play straight up man, and we cannot put that on the floor and maintain any potency in our offense. Lets solve that problem first and then evaluate Major.

I want to win as bad as you. I am not trying to give Major a free pass. I just didnt realize what a sea change we were making in terms of philosophy and how much we would have to remake the roster to get there. Maybe what you would have preferred is a coach that played a similar style to Lutz who could have won right away with Lutz’s guys, including the gunners and the malcontents. That might have been possible, but I think we were looking for a different direction.

42

We really missed the boat when we let LEBO get away.

43

I concur. We did not missed the boat, we missed the “ship”. ;D

44

BTW survivor, please post more. I enjoy your posts.

45

You can include me as one of those fans.

I think for schools above the ‘bracketbuster level’, you either pick one of two options: promote a coach from within the organization or you hire a successful head coach from the outside - either a retread (which I don’t particularly like) or a rising up-and-comer.

Using older NBA drafts as an analogy, college kids were seen as safe and high school kids were a risk. If a HS kid didn’t make it or struggled in his first couple seasons, they’d say, “Well, he probably should have gone to college instead”. If the HS kid made it, he’d be considered exceptional. The idea is that college experience would help.

It’s the same thing with hiring a guy with zero college head coaching experience at a high level. If someone is successful right away, they’re exceptional. If not, they probably should have started out a little lower. I like how an Andy Enfield (former NBA & Florida State coach) starts out at a Florida Gulf Coast and will undoubtedly work his way up the food chain in the next few seasons. I also notice that, for the most part, whenever a high-level school does make a rare move at chancing it with a zero-experience outsider, that coach will tend to struggle big time out of the gate (see Kellogg @ UMass, Mooney @ Richmond, or even a Drexler @ Houston).

I’m not against hiring a bcs assistant if that person happens to be the best applicant for the job. No more than being against an old NBA team selecting a HS player for their draft pick over a college kid or international. What I would be against is an NBA team deciding on restricting themselves to only picking a HS kid. Why shortchange yourself by artificially decreasing your pool of candidates for a silly reason? If Judy had a list including a Robert Morris head coach like a Mike Rice, or a Gregg Marshall @ Winthrop type of candidate (please, no Buzz), I’d be a little less critical of her hiring practice. But when your list is EXCLUSIVELY bcs assistants and you know that a head coach would never even get an interview, I get pissed.

I hate this thinking. We didn’t have to take chances when we hire a coach. We behaved as if a Jeff Mullens could be found at a dime-a-dozen and got burnt for it (at least for the first two years). To say that it was our ONLY option is BS.

Better than the ‘get off if you don’t like it’ stuff which assumes the Niners should not reach, because we’ll fail.

46

For folks that want to hire coaches with good records as head coaches at “BCS” schools, there is an easy solution. Multiply your annual contribution to the 49er Club by a factor of 10. They’ll be no legit excuses from the AD if we all do that.

47

I concur. We did not missed the boat, we missed the “ship”. ;D

[/quote]

I didn’t know Uncle Fester coached at ezu!

48

Watkins moved one spot down the bench when Mullens lefts. Lutz moved one spot down the bench when Watkins left.

My argument is that a complete outsider rebuilding an organization from scratch with no head coaching background is mostly unheard of at the higher levels of college basketball.

I’d love to see a list of coaches from all the Acc, Big East, MWC, C-USA, A10 type of schools and see where everyone came from. I would say that the list of promoted assitants is long. I would say that the list of promoted low level head coaches is long. C-USA schools would include some retreads.

Zero experience outsiders? My guess is that number is very small. Like I said, I’d love to see a list. Maybe I’m wrong but I doubt it.

From what I read, it’s strongly implied that it was impossible for Charlotte to find a good head coach to rebuild the program. Bullshit.

It’s amazing to me that a Duquesne can hire a low level HC like Everhart or a La Salle can hire a low level HC like Giannini or a Fordham can hire a very successful CAA HC in Pecora. Same thing with George Washington hiring a Mike Lornegan who had a really good Vermont HC tenure. All guys who were supposed to rebuild struggling programs in a relatively competitive atmosphere.

Charlotte went the complete alternative route for every single one of it’s bcs assistant candidates. Not one single low level head coach. You can’t convince me that that’s not all about the athletic director and taking a risky gamble for the sake of taking a risky gamble. The AD’s job is to do what’s right for the school, not to prove to herself that she can find another Jeff Mullens. The really sad thing is that a blind man familiar with Judy Rose could have seen the bcs assistant route coming. I know I did.

49

I’m glad you’re posting again.

50

[quote=“NinerAdvocate, post:41, topic:26486”]I want to win as bad as you. I am not trying to give Major a free pass. I just didnt realize what a sea change we were making in terms of philosophy and how much we would have to remake the roster to get there. Maybe what you would have preferred is a coach that played a similar style to Lutz who could have won right away with Lutz’s guys, including the gunners and the malcontents. That might have been possible, but I think we were looking for a different direction.[/quote]I have wondered lately if Major would’ve been better off in the long run if more of Lutz’ guys had transferred out after he got hired. The team would’ve been worse in the short run (particularly if Braswell had left), but maybe better in the long run by avoiding the expectations and conflict.

Coaching changes usually lead to upheaval, disgruntled upperclassmen, and mass transfers when you don’t hire in-house, particularly when the style is so different. We’ve had the first 2 for sure, but not the mass transfers (yet). In a lot of cases, the coaches coming in will actively run guys off to make more roster spots. Maybe Major would’ve been better off doing that last year when he still had more of a grace period, taking his lumps, but avoiding drama and bringing in more guys that fit his goals. As it is, if people on here are right and next year is the decision year (not a good idea in my view, but maybe that’s what the AD is thinking), then I don’t think Major made the best choice in going for an easier but more delayed transition.

51

[quote=“survivor45, post:48, topic:26486”]My argument is that a complete outsider rebuilding an organization from scratch with no head coaching background is mostly unheard of at the higher levels of college basketball. [/quote]It might depend on what you mean by rebuilding from scratch. Archie Miller at Dayton comes to mind, is that rebuilding from scratch? Not sure he’s a good coach yet, but had a pretty good first year.

It's amazing to me that a Duquesne can hire a low level HC like Everhart or a La Salle can hire a low level HC like Giannini or a Fordham can hire a very successful CAA HC in Pecora. Same thing with George Washington hiring a Mike Lornegan who had a really good Vermont HC tenure. All guys who were supposed to rebuild struggling programs in a relatively competitive atmosphere.
The problem I have with this is that none of these guys has yet shown that they are successful at their respective programs yet. I guess you could argue that Everhart, Giannini, and Pecora have tougher jobs to be successful at those places. Everhart came into a huge disaster with the Duquesne shootings, but hasn't done much since. None of them has even sniffed the NIT yet with their new teams. Lonergan just had a year similar to Major's first, given the talent he had on the roster (expected to be top 6 in the A10 at least). I think Pecora and Lonergan may eventually be successful, but will take their lumps for a few years. Everhart and Giannini are not great examples of what hiring a head coach can do for you, they have made many mistakes. Giannini was on the hot seat to be fired this year, and seems to have saved his job by getting the team to middle of the A10 pack.

I think I get what you are saying, head coaches at least have organizational experience which could help with transitions. But I think these can be risky even when the former team has some moderate success.

52

Everhart made the NIT in 2008-2009 at Duquesne 9erken.

53

[quote=“Niner National, post:52, topic:26486”]Everhart made the NIT in 2008-2009 at Duquesne 9erken.[/quote]Whoops, my bad. Ok, he sniffed the NIT. Not sure how much it changes my point, but sorry for the error. I thought that was another CBI year for them.

54

[quote=“9erken, post:53, topic:26486”][quote=“Niner National, post:52, topic:26486”]Everhart made the NIT in 2008-2009 at Duquesne 9erken.[/quote]Whoops, my bad. Ok, he sniffed the NIT. Not sure how much it changes my point, but sorry for the error. I thought that was another CBI year for them.[/quote]Nah. You’re right though, it doesn’t change your point. The NIT is hardly what we, or any other A10 team should be using as a measuring stick for success.

55

You don’t (typically) promote an assistant from a staff, when a team has sucked or been mediocre. I can’t think of many times this happens, other than when you fire a coach in season and have an assistant step in who does well.

56

[quote=“Nugget, post:31, topic:26486”]I believe some of our fans think that there is a list out there of available coaches who will work for $500k, win 23 games, and make it to the second round of the NCAAs annually, but Judy refuses to look at it. If this list existed 9 ACC schools would be hiring new coaches as we speak–but it doesn’t.

We have to take chances when we hire a coach. That is where we are in the food chain. Luckily our record is pretty good and we benefit from those undervalued coaches until one of the predator schools decides they will just buy the coach away from us. There is nothing we can do to change this.

Sometimes you have to just decide you are a Niners fan and work through the lean years without soiling your pants. If you cannot do that, if you feel that you must win every year, then all I can suggest is that you go to Walmart and buy a Tarheel shirt like the thousands of others just like you.

For me, while this year was another tough one it is going to be a lot of fun when we do play ourselves into a conference tournament bye again. Maybe it is because I started out with Pratt and Wissell that I enjoyed Mullins and Watkins so much. If Major turns this around it is going to be a lot more fun to watch than seeing the Tarheels thump Wake Forest…again. I am willing to take the chance, but if you cannot stomach the ride, get off.[/quote]

This thread should have ended with this post. Period.

Spot-on.

57

[quote=“49erDrummer, post:56, topic:26486”][quote=“Nugget, post:31, topic:26486”]I believe some of our fans think that there is a list out there of available coaches who will work for $500k, win 23 games, and make it to the second round of the NCAAs annually, but Judy refuses to look at it. If this list existed 9 ACC schools would be hiring new coaches as we speak–but it doesn’t.

We have to take chances when we hire a coach. That is where we are in the food chain. Luckily our record is pretty good and we benefit from those undervalued coaches until one of the predator schools decides they will just buy the coach away from us. There is nothing we can do to change this.

Sometimes you have to just decide you are a Niners fan and work through the lean years without soiling your pants. If you cannot do that, if you feel that you must win every year, then all I can suggest is that you go to Walmart and buy a Tarheel shirt like the thousands of others just like you.

For me, while this year was another tough one it is going to be a lot of fun when we do play ourselves into a conference tournament bye again. Maybe it is because I started out with Pratt and Wissell that I enjoyed Mullins and Watkins so much. If Major turns this around it is going to be a lot more fun to watch than seeing the Tarheels thump Wake Forest…again. I am willing to take the chance, but if you cannot stomach the ride, get off.[/quote]
This thread should have ended with this post. Period.

Spot-on.[/quote] So the thread is ended by saying we should accept mediocrity because there are no decent coaches that we can afford willing to work for our progam. I’m certainly glad our players don’t enter games with that pessimistic mentality. By the way we have had only 4 losing seasons in the last 24 years before Major.

58

[quote=“hky49er, post:57, topic:26486”][quote=“49erDrummer, post:56, topic:26486”][quote=“Nugget, post:31, topic:26486”]I believe some of our fans think that there is a list out there of available coaches who will work for $500k, win 23 games, and make it to the second round of the NCAAs annually, but Judy refuses to look at it. If this list existed 9 ACC schools would be hiring new coaches as we speak–but it doesn’t.

We have to take chances when we hire a coach. That is where we are in the food chain. Luckily our record is pretty good and we benefit from those undervalued coaches until one of the predator schools decides they will just buy the coach away from us. There is nothing we can do to change this.

Sometimes you have to just decide you are a Niners fan and work through the lean years without soiling your pants. If you cannot do that, if you feel that you must win every year, then all I can suggest is that you go to Walmart and buy a Tarheel shirt like the thousands of others just like you.

For me, while this year was another tough one it is going to be a lot of fun when we do play ourselves into a conference tournament bye again. Maybe it is because I started out with Pratt and Wissell that I enjoyed Mullins and Watkins so much. If Major turns this around it is going to be a lot more fun to watch than seeing the Tarheels thump Wake Forest…again. I am willing to take the chance, but if you cannot stomach the ride, get off.[/quote]
This thread should have ended with this post. Period.

Spot-on.[/quote] So the thread is ended by saying we should accept mediocrity because there are no decent coaches that we can afford willing to work for our progam. I’m certainly glad our players don’t enter games with that mentality.[/quote]

That is not what that post says to me.

Two words: REALISTIC. EXPECTATIONS.

Seriously, this is the college sports landscape in which we reside. It hurts, but the sooner everyone realizes that we have a long road back to relevance, the easier the ride will be.

What has happened the last two seasons has been unacceptable, and I’m leaning towards Major probably not being the right decision at this point. But this is our coach, this is our program, and for me, he gets 1 more year to show us that we are headed in the right direction. The program is at its lowest point since the mid 80’s. Does anybody think we are going to turn the ship completely around in 2 or 3 seasons? If so, you might want to find a good psychiatrist.

59

Exactly. We’ve fallen far enough out of relevance on the national level that it’s going to take more than a year or two to right the ship in all likelihood. Does that mean Major is/isn’t the guy for the job? I personally don’t have an answer for that. I certainly HOPE he turns out to be that guy, but I’ll definitely say I’m not sold on it myself…and if we don’t see some serious strides by year three, I’ll most likely jump right in line with those calling for a change.

Bottom line, though: There is no “fix-it” button that we can press. There is no singular change to be made that will get us back to the NCAA’s and to overall relevance overnight. If there was, I’m pretty damn sure that somebody over in the front office would be pushing that button until it breaks. It’s going to be a process. A long, arduous, frustrating process. And I’ll be around for it, even if it makes me want to gouge out my eyes for the majority of the year.

60

[quote=“jfickett, post:58, topic:26486”][quote=“hky49er, post:57, topic:26486”][quote=“49erDrummer, post:56, topic:26486”][quote=“Nugget, post:31, topic:26486”]I believe some of our fans think that there is a list out there of available coaches who will work for $500k, win 23 games, and make it to the second round of the NCAAs annually, but Judy refuses to look at it. If this list existed 9 ACC schools would be hiring new coaches as we speak–but it doesn’t.

We have to take chances when we hire a coach. That is where we are in the food chain. Luckily our record is pretty good and we benefit from those undervalued coaches until one of the predator schools decides they will just buy the coach away from us. There is nothing we can do to change this.

Sometimes you have to just decide you are a Niners fan and work through the lean years without soiling your pants. If you cannot do that, if you feel that you must win every year, then all I can suggest is that you go to Walmart and buy a Tarheel shirt like the thousands of others just like you.

For me, while this year was another tough one it is going to be a lot of fun when we do play ourselves into a conference tournament bye again. Maybe it is because I started out with Pratt and Wissell that I enjoyed Mullins and Watkins so much. If Major turns this around it is going to be a lot more fun to watch than seeing the Tarheels thump Wake Forest…again. I am willing to take the chance, but if you cannot stomach the ride, get off.[/quote]
This thread should have ended with this post. Period.

Spot-on.[/quote] So the thread is ended by saying we should accept mediocrity because there are no decent coaches that we can afford willing to work for our progam. I’m certainly glad our players don’t enter games with that mentality.[/quote]

That is not what that post says to me.

Two words: REALISTIC. EXPECTATIONS.

Seriously, this is the college sports landscape in which we reside. It hurts, but the sooner everyone realizes that we have a long road back to relevance, the easier the ride will be.

What has happened the last two seasons has been unacceptable, and I’m leaning towards Major probably not being the right decision at this point. But this is our coach, this is our program, and for me, he gets 1 more year to show us that we are headed in the right direction. The program is at its lowest point since the mid 80’s. Does anybody think we are going to turn the ship completely around in 2 or 3 seasons? If so, you might want to find a good psychiatrist.[/quote] Our fan base does not accept mediocrity. We have only had 4 losing seasons in the last 24 years before Major. If it’s going to take several more years to turn it around, it will be disaster for years after because the fan base & money will be dried up by then. We have already lost many of our fan base that had been with us for years. I have heard discussions by many large donors that are very unhappy & discussing backing off their giving & buying season tickets.You think we don’t have the money to hire a good coach now, what if we lose more donors? You need only look at people walking out of games & our attendance this year to see the fallout & the beginning of an avalanche as happened during Wissel…