Big Three Bailout

UAW is not the reason for why this bill failed. It was dead in the water long ago. UAW could have closed up shop and folks like Shelby would have still voted against it.

I wonder if this money will now come from the TARP money? I mean, that money hasnt been used for anything the Treasury Dept said it would be used for in the first place (and now studies are surfacing showing credit markets were never as frozen as good ole Hank led us to believe).

From what I’ve been hearing and reading, the UAW was asked to come up with a plan to change their pay structure in 2009, to be competitive with other automakers. They refused to agree with that by saying they already have a contract through 2011.

So they’d rather the company to declare bankruptcy than to change their pay structure?

From what I've been hearing and reading, the UAW was asked to come up with a plan to change their pay structure in 2009, to be competitive with other automakers. They refused to agree with that by saying they already have a contract through 2011.

So they’d rather the company to declare bankruptcy than to change their pay structure?

I personally think the UAW did not want the bailout last night. They’d rather get the TARP funds and then avoid bankruptcy.

Well, there goes my GM stock.

Then, the republicans in congress shipped barges of money without any strings to the banks and AIG (AIG is now asking for $10B more!), to bail out their cronies, but suddenly $15B is too much to even consider... The TARP money is being wildly misspent, and is rewarding inefficiency, and ultimately the people picking up the tab for this are all Americans, thanks to the devlaution of their dollars, but especially the taxpapyers, who will have to repay the debt.

I agree with the ease at which it seemed they were willing to help the banks out, and think there probably was some shady connections. But I think the differences were that the banks essentially affect everybody. And secondly, you can possibly see a light at the end for the banks. They got hit with a lending fiasco. After some restructuring, unloading of bad debt, rate adjustments, “hopefully” we will see a turn around.

With the auto manufacturers, they could lend them the money now, but in 6 months they will still have the disadvantage of employee pay, benefits and corporate taxes. There’s no real light at the end.

Its all such a cluster****. I'm sick of it. 2008 has been a miserable year.

Couldn’t agree more. Just ugh!!! I’m really starting to feel like hiding my money under my mattress would have been the best investment. Unbelievably frustrating to possibly see 5 years of earnings go away in 3 months.

the UAW prez is a M O R O N. His IQ appears to be under 100

[QUOTE=metro;369451]the UAW prez is a M O R O N. His IQ appears to be under 100[/QUOTE]

That’s the problem with this whole mess, banks, carmakers, whatever. We have smart people (the business leaders) dealing with not so smart people (Congress). Guess who the ultimate loser is going to be.

sure it is, do some reading.

LOL

Look Metro…despite your overwhelming need to to pin this entire thing on UAW…they werent the sole cause for the Senate failure.

Republican leadership refused to even send delegations to the original negotiations they were so against it. In the 11th hour, the senate scraps the original plans to at least bring pubs to the freakin table. Corker pipes up with some mandatory 4 dollar wage cuts in a year period that no responsible union in the world would agree too, and of course that crashes and burns. UAW asks for a gradual reduction until 2011, and that is no go. It was a stonewall on both sides.

And none of this might have mattered anyway. THere is no certainty that this would have passed with the 4 dollars wage cuts. Folks like DeMint and Shelby have said that restructure is the only way and were against a bailout of any type.

But no, your right. It’s all the UAW’s fault. Life must be so easy when everything is black and white.

LOL

Look Metro…despite your overwhelming need to to pin this entire thing on UAW…they werent the sole cause for the Senate failure.

Republican leadership refused to even send delegations to the original negotiations they were so against it. In the 11th hour, the senate scraps the original plans to at least bring pubs to the freakin table. Corker pipes up with some mandatory 4 dollar wage cuts in a year period that no responsible union in the world would agree too, and of course that crashes and burns. UAW asks for a gradual reduction until 2011, and that is no go. It was a stonewall on both sides.

And none of this might have mattered anyway. THere is no certainty that this would have passed with the 4 dollars wage cuts. Folks like DeMint and Shelby have said that restructure is the only way and were against a bailout of any type.

But no, your right. It’s all the UAW’s fault. Life must be so easy when everything is black and white.

I don’t think the Republicans stopping this deal is a bad idea. Just throwing money at a problem isn’t going to help it. Restructure is most likely necessary.

A lot of the fault does rest on the UAW, though.

I don't think the Republicans stopping this deal is a bad idea. Just throwing money at a problem isn't going to help it. Restructure is most likely necessary.

A lot of the fault does rest on the UAW, though.

Oh I agree. I’m on the “let them restructure” side of the fence. I’m not blaming Republicans at all. But the entire thing was a sham in the Senate, and further illustrates how piss poor the Senate leadership is.

I also agree that the UAW does have a lot to answer for.

how can GM not have enough cash to weather a couple bad years? Its crazy. They’ve had plenty of marketshare thru the years.

Ford is gonna be OK.

[B]What is an American Car, anyway?[/B]

(CNN) – With the top U.S. automakers in economic survival mode, “Buy American” is a frequent cry among those trying to save jobs at home.

Georgia trucker Douglas Sullivan says he’s concerned more about quality than the origin of a vehicle’s parts.

1 of 2 But buying a car to benefit the U.S. economy has become an ambiguous, complicated challenge.

“How you define an American car is one of the great conundrums of this world,” said Dutch Mandel, the editor and associate publisher of AutoWeek.

Fewer than half of the parts on some Big Three vehicles are made in the U.S.

Looking at a Ford Fusion? It is assembled in Mexico. The Chrysler 300C is assembled in Canada, but its transmission is from Indiana; the brand’s V-8 engine is made in Mexico. Engines in the Chevrolet Equinox sport utility vehicle are from China.

On the other hand, Toyota’s Camry is comprised 80 percent of parts made in the United States, and 56 percent of Toyota’s vehicles sold in the U.S. also are made here, according to Toyota spokeswoman Sona Iliffe-Moon.

The Toyota Sienna and Tundra also have 80 percent of their parts manufactured in the U.S.

“When you have manufacturers from around the world building cars in the U.S. with 85 percent domestic content – engine, transmission, assembly – is that an American car?” Mandel asked. Or, he asks, is it considered foreign because the profits go back to a foreign country?

“It’s truly a global industry,” said Thomas Klier, a Chicago, Illinois, economist who co-authored “Who Really Made Your Car?” an encyclopedic analysis of the auto industry melting pot. Watch how U.S. auto woes affect Asia »

“When you think of buying American, you should focus on three points – its engine, transmission and where it was assembled,” Klier said.

To get that information, read a vehicle’s window sticker. U.S. automakers are legally required to detail the origin of a car’s parts and its final assembly point.

“Unfortunately, there are few people who know about the sticker or even bother to look at it,” said Bernard Swiecki, a senior project manager at the nonprofit Center for Automotive Research in Michigan, which follows trends in the industry.

The sticker’s details were news to Douglas Sullivan, 43, a truck driver from Snellville, Georgia. Though he prefers foreign brands, believing them to be of higher quality, he said he used to favor U.S. brands because he wanted to support American workers.

“I wanted to keep the jobs right here,” Sullivan said.

Swiecki said many people think about image of a brand, rather than the way that brand has evolved over decades as the market has grown more diverse and competitive.

"They will think, ‘I’m buying a GM, I’m getting an American car,’ " Swiecki said.

Foreign car manufacturers generate billions of dollars in jobs and community infrastructure in the U.S., but there is a difference between Detroit’s economic footprint and that of its foreign rivals.

The Center for Automotive Research says Detroit’s Big Three employed almost 240,000 people in the U.S. at the end of 2007. Foreign makers had about 113,00 U.S. employees at the time. Watch UAW leader’s take on bailout’s failure in Senate »

The key difference in how the Big Three and foreign brands support jobs in the U.S. comes outside the factories, according to a 2006 study by the Level Field Institute, a group formed by Big Three retirees in Washington.

“What’s driving the difference in jobs … is investment in research, design, engineering and management,” Level Field President Jim Doyle said in a statement on the 2006 study.

The Center for Automotive Research said the Big Three had 24,000 engineers on U.S. payrolls in 2007. The Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association said its member companies had 3,500 U.S. research and development employees in 2007.

[B]Level Field found that every 1,000 vehicles sold by Detroit’s Big Three in the U.S. support more than twice as many jobs as 1,000 vehicles sold by foreign nameplates.[/B]

Most Americans consumers understand that the industry is global, Swiecki said, and they are more savvy than ever in purchasing vehicles.

“For the most part, gone are the days of people going to a car lot and paying a buck to take a swing of a hammer at a foreign-made car,” Swiecki said.

But there are exceptions.

A Savannah, Georgia, Ford dealer sold 15 cars last weekend after he ran a radio ad blaming Japan for Detroit’s financial funk.

While 15 was substantially better than weekends before the ad, dealer O.C. Welch said, it was still about half of the business he did a year ago.

[B]“All you people that buy all your Toyotas and send that money to Japan, you know, when you don’t have a job to make your Toyota car payment, don’t come crying to me,” Welch says in the ad. “All those cars are rice ready. They’re not road ready.”[/B] :ohmy:

Sullivan, who was at an Atlanta, Georgia, dealership Thursday to pick up his American brand minivan from the service department, said he has had a different experience.

He said the vehicle has given him trouble, and whenever he replaces it, he’ll probably go with a foreign brand, regardless of whether any of the parts were made in the United States.

“What I look for is good gas mileage, and when I pay it off in four or five years, it’s still running,” said Sullivan, who has owned several American and foreign brands. "It seems I get better quality with a foreign car.

Harry Reid predicted last night after the vote, the stock market would unravel today :biglaugh:

its +60

[QUOTE=metro;369582]Harry Reid predicted last night after the vote, the stock market would unravel today :biglaugh:

its +60[/QUOTE]

… on reports that they might get TARP money & the WH might get involved.

get over it guys…this is ridiculous
-The car companies represent a bunch of businesses who won’t change their business model to compete with better-made and priced foreign cars (Toyota, Honda, etc.) so what do they do ? They cry for $$$ from Congress
-But what about the workers??? Guess what? The workers for all three have enough benefits and packages to be able to weather a bad year through their unionized deal…don’t worry about it…

-This is bailout idea a joke, but it represents capitalism at its best. They can’t stand the heat so get out of the market.

Why AIG Gets Billions, GM Gets Scorn

* Rick Newman
* Friday December 12, 2008, 1:09 pm EST

* Yahoo! Buzz
* Print

Let me see if I’m getting this right: AIG, the huge insurance company, has so far gotten $173 billion worth of federal aid, because traders at one small division made bets on exotic securities that were so calamitous they threatened to bring down the whole company. So far, the amount of money the feds have pledged to this one firm equals nearly one-third of the nation’s defense budget.

General Motors, America’s biggest automaker, has asked for a $10 billion federal loan, equal to one-seventeenth of what AIG has gotten - and Congress has said no. There were no rogue traders at GM, and the company’s problems have intensified in plain view, over several months, instead of coming from out of nowhere in a single, cataclysmic episode.

Make sense? Doesn’t to me. So maybe if we look at each company a bit more closely, it will be clearer why the government favors companies like AIG over ones like GM.

Is AIG bigger? No. AIG doesn’t break out its U.S. employment numbers, but it has 116,000 workers worldwide. Perhaps half of those are U.S. jobs.

GM employs 96,000 Americans. Total worldwide employment is 252,000, more than twice AIG’s.

Are AIG executives humbler? Not really. Here’s how CEO pay stacks up:

Former AIG CEO Martin Sullivan earned about $14 million in 2007. Total pay over the last three years: About $53 million (including only 9 months in 2005, the year he became CEO).

GM CEO Rick Wagoner earned $14.4 million in 2007. Total pay over the last three years: About $30 million.

AIG is also offering controversial “retention bonuses,” ranging from $92,500 to $4,000,000, to a select group of execs deemed essential to the company’s turnaround. Congress has asked questions - but so far shown little outrage.

Has AIG had a regime change? Yes. Former Allstate CEO Ed Liddy took over the company in September, replacing Sullivan, who presided over a wipeout in credit-default swaps and other exotic investments. The fresh blood pacified critics somewhat.

GM has had no regime change, although key members of Congress have called for that. Wagoner has been running the company since 2000, and the company continues to aggressively defend him.

[ Read a defense of Rick Wagoner.]

Has AIG presented its turnaround plan to Congress? Not formally. There’s only been one Congressional hearing on AIG, and that focused mostly on past practices. No current AIG officials have testified before Congress since the feds got involved.

Wagoner has testified before Congress four times since November. And GM has presented a 38-page “viability plan,” that’s publicly available, showing how it would use government money.

[See how the automakers’ bailout plans stack up.]

Does have AIG have friends in high places? You could say that. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke both support the AIG bailout, and they’ve steered money to the company without Congressional approval.

GM’s most important friends in Washington have been the Michigan Congressional delegation, which obviously doesn’t have the clout it used to. Paulson has actually argued against using part of the huge $700 billion financial bailout fund to help the automakers, because they can’t pass a “viability” test proving they’ll stay in business long enough to pay back the loans. But AIG hasn’t passed a viability test either, and without federal help there’s little doubt it would be in bankruptcy.

[Read about better ways to handle a multibillion-dollar bailout.]

Does AIG have unionized workers? Few, if any.

GM has a bunch: 64,000. Ah ha! Maybe that explains it. In fact, Senate Republicans who blocked a $10 billion emergency loan for GM and a $4 billion loan for Chrysler said they wouldn’t approve a Detroit bailout unless the United Auto Workers made much deeper concessions than they’ve already offered, essentially giving up any advantages they have over non-unionized workers in other states.

So here’s one lesson: If you want a government bailout, try to have problems that are too complicated for most people to understand. And make sure your employees are the kind who wear a suit to work every day. Once you’ve satisfied those two requirements, ask for as much as you want: The coffers are open.

If you can’t see how stabilizing banks is more important than stabilizing a failing auto-mobile company… well, I don’t know what to say.

[QUOTE=eason49;369626]If you can’t see how stabilizing [B]banks[/B] is more important than stabilizing a failing auto-mobile company… well, I don’t know what to say.[/QUOTE]

[B]ABOUT AIG
[/B]
American International Group, Inc. (AIG), a world leader in [B]insurance [/B]and financial services, is the leading international insurance organization with operations in more than 130 countries and jurisdictions. AIG companies serve commercial, institutional and individual customers through the most extensive worldwide [B]property-casualty and life insurance [/B]networks of any insurer. In addition, AIG companies are leading providers of retirement services, financial services and asset management around the world. AIG’s common stock is listed on the New York Stock Exchange, as well as the stock exchanges in Ireland and Tokyo.

So im a little confused, what goings on with this 14b$??

The Bush administration might go ahead and circumvent the failed legislation and instead use TARP money to give to the automakers.

The Bush administration, worried about a further blow to the US economy, said it was ready to step in and prevent the auto industry from collapsing, likely using the $700 billion Wall Street bailout fund.
Of the $350 billion portion of the TARP that the U.S. Treasury is authorized to tap, only $15 billion remains uncommitted. Treasury had pledged to pump $250 billion into banks, but so far has only disbursed $155.3 billion, with another $10 billion for Merrill Lynch on hold pending its merger with Bank of America.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/28193063

[QUOTE=NinerAdvocate;369642][B]ABOUT AIG
[/B]
American International Group, Inc. (AIG), a world leader in [B]insurance [/B]and financial services, is the leading international insurance organization with operations in more than 130 countries and jurisdictions. AIG companies serve commercial, institutional and individual customers through the most extensive worldwide [B]property-casualty and life insurance [/B]networks of any insurer. In addition, AIG companies are leading providers of retirement services, financial services and asset management around the world. AIG’s common stock is listed on the New York Stock Exchange, as well as the stock exchanges in Ireland and Tokyo.[/QUOTE]

QTF

if the govt. would only stick to helping BANKS.

I’ve said it before, but once again, the domestic auto industry has huge issues. it would be silly to defend them.

but the consequences of 96,000 North Carolinians out of work would be just as bad around here.