Official NNN Game of Thrones (HBO) thread

It would have been so easy to fix to make it even the most remotely compelling. We’ll even do the prophecies are either misleading or pure bullshit method… Ready? Here goes…

Arya dies in the battle when she confronts a large group of White Walkers who are effortlessly chopping down Winterfell defenders (here’s an idea… maybe give the WW’s something to you know, actually do, while also preserving them being as menacing as they were back when they killed Ser Waymar Royce in the Shows prologue). Arya initially thinks she is ready to fight them, but it quickly becomes clear that they are much more powerful and horrific than any human opponent she has ever faced, and its obvious she just wasn’t ready to deal with that level of cold brutality that many WWs at once (she’s not a fucking caped superhero folks)…

The Hound and Beric, fighting madly to get to her, see the whole thing happen, watching in horror and dismay as she is stabbed, repeatedly, mere feet from them, her face frozen in pain and frustration. The Hound furiously cuts down everything in his way, and as he reaches her lifeless staring body, is for a second, uncharacteristically at a loss for words. He turns on the White Walkers, “you shouldn’t have done that you fucking cunts” (or something suitably Houndish) and attacks them, killing one quickly, but the rest recover and start to overwhelm him. Beric seizes the opportunity and drops to his knee, giving Arya the kiss of life (which he gives to Catelyn Stark in the books), and falls over dead, his purpose complete (maybe Melissandre even foreshadows this with an earlier comment to him). Arya comes to, confused for a second, but snaps into focus when the Hound says “Run, you dumb bitch!”, and they share a split second glance confirming the sacrifice that he is making again for her, before he is cut down. Arya nearly disembowels a white walker with a ferocious slash, in angry revenge, before darting off into the keep…

Later, Jon desperately cuts his way through the wights and one or two white walkers to reach the NK in the Godswood. He races to join Theon in protecting Bran, and they are surrounded as the NK steps forward. It gets very quiet in an otherwise pitched battle as the specter of death settles upon them. Jon delivers Bran’s line to Theon about being a good man, which is validation from someone he respects so much (and not from some weird autistic stoner boy). Jon and Bran share a knowing look “this is hopeless, we are going to die, but let’s get on with it”, which Theon cuts off with a nervous swallow, and a determined nod, as Jon gives a look towards the NK.

Jon draws Longclaw and moves towards the NK as Theon draws a dragonglass sword and tries to hold off as many WW & wights as he can. Theon is overcome fairly quickly and dies. The NK coolly draws and meets Jon’s swing, and the battle of the supposed Prince That Was Promised™ (Melissandre approved!) vs the NK begins… except the NK using his hauntingly wordless determination and cold magic, begins overpowering Jon, possibly even knocking Longclaw from his hands. As Jon staggers backwards, falling, a look of “oh shit, I’ve failed” and fear playing out on his face, a smaller shape, spins and rolls through the melee, stabbing and cutting, and then springs up between them. The NK grabs Arya, and she performs the exact same move, killing him instantly.

It’s still a stupidly premature end to the primary plot line and existential threat to the show, which still renders the NK as useless as Snoke, and Bran completely and utterly useless to the entire story, even after he portended enormous capacity to influence events across history, but at least it’s not a totally ridiculous Last Jedi type fuck you to the fantasy elements of the story (“yo, fuck the force”).

That’s not even how I would prefer to do it, and it was written stream of consciousness style with no pre thought, and it’s still better than the bullshit we were shown. Benioff and Weiss had fucking years to come up with something better than the middle finger they gave GRRM and the fans. Ridiculous.

Y’all remember that story, whinnie the Pooh? Well I think it would have been better if instead of a bear, there was a lion, and instead of a tiger and donkey, an orangutan and a sea monkey. Yeah, that would been cool.

Also

Disembowel? What bowels? They also evaporate / explode when struck with dragonglass or valeryian steel, not get disemboweled. They aren’t human.

They way people huoe this in their minds is why it can never meet expectations.

You should stop trying to use analogies in your arguments. You’re terrible at it, and this one makes absolutely no sense. And if someone has to explain why to you, well that just proves the point.

It’s not about people bringing their own expectations to the books/show, it’s about the writers setting them for decades and then none of them paying off through either neglect or ineptitude. It is a fatal flaw at an entirely fundamental level of storytelling.

I enjoyed the episode. I was on the edge of my seat the whole time. I really didn’t need to see a personal side to the Night King. He was a magical creature designed by the Children of the Forest to kill. Many people became fans of the series because of the human conflict and interpersonal dynamics not necessarily the magic aspects. Now the story can return to its original theme the struggle for the throne.

It was intentionally ridiculous. You were just too obtuse to pick up on it. It’s cool. Back to Arya disemboweling white walkers or whatever.

Let’s hope an “Arya” shows up for us in the Clemson game.

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So it was intentionally that bad then. Cool. Go back to snarky bad hot takes.

This is awesome!

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The struggle for the throne is not the central story. The series is called A Song of Ice and Fire. Game of Thrones is just the name of the first book and a plot device.

Let’s get into that a little bit more. When GRRM wrote this series, he was, among other things, looking to write High Fantasy for adults. Some relevant benchmarks include Frank Herbert’s Dune, which has been called “Star Wars for adults”. Like GoT, Dune has warring houses battling for political control of the universe, but it ultimately has a messiah prophecy that is realized in Paul “Maudeeb” Atreides. That story most certainly pays off with a resolution to its fantasy elements (and I most certainly agree with the critics who say that Dune is actually more fantasy than Sci Fi), but I digress.

GRRM wrote the A Song of Ice and fire Series with several important themes. they varied between the more practical and the more fantastical. Among some of the most prevalent:

  1. An ongoing criticism of war, and patriarchal / feudalistic societies, the latter as a thinly veiled criticism of emerging neo feudalistic and continuing patriarchal elements he saw in this day and age, that frequently led to conflict and war, to the detriment of the common people, while only bettering the ruling class. George was also a conscientious objector to the Vietnam War, having written about it years before he was called to duty. There is a very long sermon given by the book equivalent of the character (“Brother Ray”) on the show, played by Deadwood’s Ian McShane, which encapsulates a lot of GRRM’s commentary on these subject. However it is also peppered throughout the story. GRRM was also particularly focused on the treatment of women in this type of society, which is why a lot of his female characters go through so many atrocities - but the public badly misinterpreted that as personal sadism. Hold on to that thought about the public missing the point, because I’ll revisit it later.

  2. “The Human Heart In Conflict With Itself” - I really should have put this @ #1 because by his own frequent statements, this is his guiding principal in writing. He feels this is the most interesting thing to write about, and its what gives his characters such depth… however

3)… He also very intentionally wanted to write a story involving high fantasy. Back to the Dune comparison. It is important here to note that he 1) did not create the Night King character. That was a show only creation, and they kind of stole the name from character GRRM wrote about in the past who was not the same thing. “The Night’s King” was a Stark, and like the 7th or so (I forget now) Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch (Jon is like the 997th - again I forget, but its been awhile). He had some odd qualities, supposedly married a female Other (that’s what White Walkers are called in the books), and ruled the North from the Nightfort (one of the castles along the walls). As far as we know in the books, there is no central “lead vampire” type character or mechanic for the Others. And if you will recall, they instead work in packs or solo hunting and killing humans (instead of standing around like even lazier versions of the zombie wights on the show). Also, dragonglass doesn’t even hurt the wights, that was also a show construction. You have to burn wights to kill them, which makes them even more terrifying. Another Show only construct was the Melissandre - Arya meeting that so many people are using to justify Arya killing the NK. That was a total show invention, and one they retcon’d at that - Melissandre on the show merely sees that Arya is going to become an assassin / agent of death. the eye color comment was about that - there was no emphasis on blue eyes. That was so ridiculous.

We still do not know GRRMs full backstory on the Others. He hasn’t told it yet. What we got was Benioff and Weiss’ take, which is inherently lame and doesn’t fulfill any of the tenants / themes of GRRM. He however most certainly wanted them to be an existential threat overarching all the petty human squabbles - such that all the bullshit political backstabbing threatened the entire world. Remember “Winter is Coming”? The last Long night lasted a thousand years, but this Snoke version of the Others threat was dispatched like a side quest in a RPG by a character that apparently got a helicopter ride to the fight. It was completely inconsistent with every High Fantasy element that GRRM wrote AND THE SHOWRUNNERS ALSO INCLUDED IN THE STORY, and that’s why it failed so miserably. Every bit of Jon’s and huge portions of many other characters backstories were about getting Jon (and possibly Dany) to this ultimate showdown in the War for the Dawn. But neither of them were even there on the show. It was the same kind of petulant subversion Rian Johnson performed in the Last Jedi. And it was totally unnecessary. It would have been so easy to weave in a light version of those fantasy elements to the battle without even changing the kill shot.

Cersei, positioned as the ultimate bad guy, is equally awful. She is a spoiled, bratty. idiot who makes horrible decisions (arming the religious fanatic cult in the capital - SUPER IDEA) but thinks she knows better than everyone else. GRRM said at least one time that he almost killed her off in AFFC, but kept her around as a story foil. I can even buy that the showrunners wanted to expand the role for an excellent actress (Lena Headey is great - I love the job she does on the show), but the problem with making her the ultimate bad guy is that there is no urgency behind anything now that the existential threat is gone. Let me say that again. THERE IS NO URGENCY TO ANYTHING NOW THAT THE EXISTENTIAL THREAT IS GONE. Instead, it’s just a rather uninspiring period piece that has been made dozens of times before - seriously go watch The Crown if that’s your thing. Or any of the Elizabeth movies, and so on. Meanwhile, any character with any element of fantasy is left wasted and unresolved. Bran is perhaps the most useless character I have ever seen in any series. He does literally nothing despite amazing power to not shoot people with freaking lazer beams, but a much more interesting and human power to shape events across time. You cant leave that Chekov’s gun to sit and waste away. That’s such an abortion of storytelling… its just awful on every level.

And then we are back to the unfortunate choice of the show title, which the public has… wait for it… misinterpreted to be the point of the show. It never ever was. It was just a diversion. A side plot. All indications are that GRRM wanted to destroy the throne, and there is imagery in both the books AND IN THE SHOW ITSELF of the throne / king landing being destroyed. This is not accidental, though the final interpretation of it is yet to be revealed.

That’s my real only hope for the series, is that there is some kind of crazy high fantasy twist involving Bran, Jon and Dany, that none of us saw coming. Bran was doing something during that entire Battle For Winterfell (though my friends say he was just watching Avengers Endgame cause he was bored by all the bad writing). Maybe there’s a massive twist left to come. One unresolved theme from the books that the showrunners only lightly touched on is that there is definitely a contingent in the world that wants to do away with magic, and it definitely involves a good chunk of the maesters in the citadel (and somehow Jhaqen Hgar is involved). Maybe there’s something else to that.

This leads me to a 4th theme (a high fantasy one) that I forgot to mention before, but is repeated frequently in the show and books - “a death for a life” - Whether it’s Dany birthing the dragons by 3 deaths (Drogo, her unborn baby, and the witch), or many other examples in the books, there is no doubt that it is a central tenant to the ASOIAF / GOT world. And like the other themes, it deserves a payoff in the final act.

Many commentators better versed in both the books and show than me, have speculated that the intended endgame involves a combination of the above themes. A sacrifice (death for a life), by a key character whose heart is in conflict with itself, and a final resolution to the prophecy, which may or may not involve the death of magic, and a breaking of the wheel, that ends the political system of Westeros.

That is the ending that was expected. That is the basis of the ending that ASOAIF deserves. And unless B&W throw the sickest of all curveballs ever, I do not expect that we will see anything remotely like that. And that sucks, because we do not know if GRRM will finish the books. And criticizing him for not doing so is therefore valid. But it doesn’t excuse B&W for the shit job they are doing ending the show, because they are so “over it” in their own words and ready to run off to other projects (“lets go fuck up the Star Wars mythos next, like we just did with GoT!!!”).

But in the glass half full department, it also gives GRRM every motivation to finish the story the right way. I hope he does.

Good Lord. Enjoy. :nerd_face:

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That they called the TV series Game of Thrones despite knowing the book series is called A Song of Ice and Fire should be telling.

NLP, you know better than that. The official name was too long, and in fairness, too obscure, to be an effective show title.

If the point of the story was just a political period piece for the throne, then why did GRRM title his series ASOIAF instead of GoT?

I liked it. It’s just entertainment and I was entertained. :man_shrugging:

I love the theories and the thinking about things - loved it with LOST and with this and all the other shows and books that make you think - but at the end of the day it’s just entertainment - step away from the ledge and go outside and get some sun.

That’s how I view Avengers NWA, so I get it. I suppose there are superfans of those movies who obsess the same way. That said, there’s very little confusion as to the point of those stories. they’re pretty superficial.

Dude, it took me a couple of days!

(Returns to Android Dungeon)

This isn’t about GRRM. Don’t circle back to him. I’m saying it was an editorial decision by HBO to do what they did.

The only two things I really want an answer for is 1) why was Bran warging that whole time, because he clearly wasn’t just using the ravens to keep an eye on the Night’s King. 2) Despite her faceless man training, how did Arya sneak past all the WW and Dead to get at the NK.

I wonder if that was why the NK had to kill Bran, to keep him from warging away into another body.